Rethinking Leadership Development with Jessica Lee

Jess Part Two

Ross: [: 00:00:00

Jess: there really is an ongoing leadership paradox where leaders are facing sometimes overwhelming and really unrealistic expectations to be everything to everyone.

And traditional leadership isn't sufficient because leadership is, as we said, a really complex and specialized field. And all of this is in the context of a potential disinterest in the future workforce in managing and leading. Therefore, I suppose what I'm proposing and what we're proposing is that we really need to shift our focus in terms of leadership and leadership development to prioritize self-leadership, self-awareness, and emotional flexibility before leaders can learn the specialisms of leading others.

And I think true leadership begins with knowing oneself, recognizing our personal capabilities, our limitations, how to manage them, and just as importantly, how to live authentically.

Ross: peace Soupers. In this [: 00:01:00

Curiosity, flexibility, exploration with a side order of passion, fun, and making an impact. In this episode, we explore the complexities of leadership and leadership development, Emphasizing the significance of understanding leadership as a sophisticated profession. We discuss challenges such as the expectations placed on new leaders, and evidence that points to the reluctance of the younger generation to step into leadership roles and pervasive issues such as burnout and imposter syndrome.

contextual understanding, we [: 00:02:00

For those of you who are new to People Soup, welcome. It's great to have you here. aim to provide you with the ingredients for a better work life from behavioral science and beyond. For those of you who are regular, peace supers. Thanks for tuning in. Again, we love it that you're part of our community.

Now, let's take a quick scoot over to the news desk. Reviews are in for part one with Jess Marie Lawler on LinkedIn. Said a great, listen, Jess, creativity is your middle name. Grace Cunningham on LinkedIn said, fabulous. Jess, love the idea of the leadership catwalk and Rachel Boyle on LinkedIn too.

on with Jess's siblings with [: 00:03:00

now Jess we're going to move on to our topic that you and me have been discussing for a while and by a while I mean at least a couple of years and that's leadership and leadership development and we often just chew the fat about what are the issues, what are the challenges, what are the things that we are noticing in that environment.

So, do you want to have a go at

describing some of the key themes we've covered? Yeah,

Jess: Yeah,

porate learning. report from [: 00:04:00

And the statement from this was, leadership has become a complex, specialized profession, not unlike similar positions in medicine, finance, teaching, or law. And I just thought, yes, correct. You know, it is, it's so underestimated the value of leadership and the level of complexity of leadership.

and. You know, the specific skills, understanding, knowledge that is required, in certain areas and at certain levels of leadership. But just, yeah, I suppose how complex it can be. and I know we said earlier, you know, leadership, everybody can be a leader. I still believe that, but in terms of, I suppose, leadership development, that particular, offering as such can be quite complex, can be quite over egged, I think.

h more meaningful for people [: 00:05:00

Ross: yeah. I love that quote from that paper because I think, I think sometimes organizations and individuals can assume that once someone is appointed to a role that has leadership responsibility, there

can be a, A level of naivety sometimes about this is going to happen by magic.

Jess: Yeah, osmosis.

Ross: everything will, will kind of slot into place, but looking on it as a profession, like a surgeon or a lawyer, I think is absolutely right.

Because I don't think it's something that happens overnight. I think it takes development and practice. There might be natural elements to it,

he concept of a born leader. [: 00:06:00

Jess: Yeah, well, I mean, if you take the examples of medicine, finance, teaching, law, they all have elements of traineeships to them. So there's a period of time over which you learn specific aspects. Doesn't necessarily happen in leadership. You suddenly go from a manager or a certain level to a leader, whatever that means.

And all these expectations are kind of thrust upon you. so you still have to do your day job. You still have to manage people. And then you have to kind of shift and think differently. Think about, you know, strategic aspects. Think about head, head, foot, foot, so many things going on around you that it's, can be quite hard to digest.

And it seems to happen a lot faster within organizations or in a corporate setting, whereas obviously if you were a doctor, you wouldn't be given a patient to do. do surgery on overnight. That is a skill that is learned over time and developed, perceived, viewed, learned, talked about, studied, observed.

Ross: [: 00:07:00

Jess: Yeah.

Ross: a leader might be facing multiple challenges on their second day and maybe not have the, the resources or the perspectives to, to carry that forward.

Why don't we have a go at just outlining some of the challenges that we see leaders facing from our combined experience. I'll start with a couple. And what I think is, is relentlessness. Just finding that there's, there's, there's not room to breathe sometimes because things are changing. And that relates to another one, which is a complexity of the environment.

elf esteem can take a, a bit [: 00:08:00

And I think the tendency for leaders. In those situations, what they might do is do what they were successful at in their previous role. Well, this is what got me promoted doing that, so I'll now do this in my leadership role. And they realize that's not feasible, it's not logical, it's not appropriate to do that because it's a whole set of different responsibilities and, and complexities. And that's where they can find themselves. Really beginning to notice that self doubt and imposterism. So there's a few, a

few I've noticed, but do you want to add to the list, Jess?

ice in, in organizations and [: 00:09:00

by stepping in, stepping forward all the time, their whole career, the 20, whatever, many years to become a certain level.

Stepping back and adjusting behaviours

Jess: And all of a sudden. In effect, they need to step out or step back and it's like, stop, pause, reflect, notice, strategize, you know, influence, negotiate, communicate differently, make decisions differently. But nobody's ever kind of called this out and said, all of those things you were doing, all of those ways that you were behaving served you up to this point.

nging that a little bit, not [: 00:10:00

Gen Z Leadership Article

ersonally a fan of, but it's [: 00:11:00

And then it got me thinking, well, what's the proportion of the

depends where you are, but by: 2030

Ross: I love that research. It's so interesting because I guess part of that.

Conclusion that the Gen Z'ers reach is they're looking upwards and thinking, Oh,

Jess: don't want that

Ross: that seems really stressful.

Jess: Yeah, that's a bit

tough. seems like hard work, keeping all those plates spinning. Or perhaps not seeing the representation at that level also. they're probably really

Ross: enjoying their individual contributor role.

Jess: Yeah. And [: 00:12:00

that perception of relentlessness, The level of decision making that needs to happen, the,

the level of responsibility, maybe the, the burnout levels, the, you know, how, how they see their bosses or their leaders within their organizations.

Report - Feeling Stressed and Anxious more than half the time

Jess: and, you know, it's also looking at some. Research around, uh, it's basically an annual report run. It's Ireland or Irish specific for the PSUPRs. but just that it's an annual report run around kind of, I suppose, the health of the nation really. And that there's one, uh, measure which is around feeling stressed and anxious more than half the time.

y increasing in Ireland since: 2018

Mm hmm.

Ross: Yeah, people talk to each other. People know, perhaps, leaders in their family, older members of their family, what it's like. And they are being put off what could be a really rewarding part of their career. So we're not marketing it very well.

Jess: Yeah, exactly.

Ross: And we're not role modeling it very well.

Jess: Perhaps, yeah.

Ross: Because for some people, it could be a really invigorating.

It's a fruitful option to take,

Jess: Absolutely.

Ross: are we helping them develop the skills that will support them? Support their well being whilst they move up a leadership chain? No,

Jess: I think

Ross: think we are.

Jess: I think that's the exact point.

re already there. It's maybe [: 00:14:00

I think sometimes, I think quite frequently,

Leadership development programs are missing out on that part.

Jess: Absolutely. I think there's a tendency, from what I see, to focus on that more external world of, okay, we're going to teach you to, here's how to do X, here's how to, you know, learn Y, but rather reverse it.

Let's start with you - and challenve the industry

Jess: And say, let's start with you as a human being. Let's start at the human center. Let's be a bit more progressive in our thinking.

stry. Let's challenge it and [: 00:15:00

Ross: Hmm. Yeah, beautifully put. And I think something we identified between us in our conversations is those fads,

Jess: Mm.

Ross: those whims, those gurus, because what do we mean by that? I think sometimes an organization will grab onto the latest trend and say, we'll introduce this, it'll fix everything. Jobs are good, that's kind of very superficial, I think

Hmm. [: 00:16:00

Jess: it's, it's a fad, which means it's kind of a drop of point in time. Uh, something that.

Hits popularity at a certain point, which like, I don't know, maybe the phrase unconscious bossing, for example, you know, those kind of phrases that pop in and out. And I know that I always feel, rightly or wrongly, I feel this kind of pressure from people who go, Oh, you must have read that book, you must know this, and you must know that, and you must know the, you know, this particular topic, or this, like, I can't know every, nobody can know everything, you know, yeah, if, if it's helpful, if it's useful.

I'm happy to research it, understand it. I can't know everything. I can't be on top of every single fad. And, you know, fads are just that. They're fads. They're based on hype rather than on substance.

Ross: They're kind of based on good marketing.

Jess: Yeah.

you go, oh, I'll just have a [: 00:17:00

I did a 10km jog then had some egg whites and then meditated for half an hour

Jess: Yeah.

Ross: and then looked at client feedback for an hour because I always need to be in touch with the people.

Jess: Yeah.

Ross: That sort of utter nonsense

Jess: Yeah. Gotta

be realistic.

Ross: sometimes people think, well if I do the same as Bob there. It's going to be great and going to be as successful as he is.

o a family that had millions [: 00:18:00

do that internal work doesn't really help.

Jess: No. I always liken it to, like, a diet or an exercise regime. Like, one diet will not suit all cultures and all body types and all genders and, you know, it, you have to find the thing that works for you. whether that be your diet, whether that be what you You know, you eat, how you exercise, how you view your life, how you get some rest, all of those aspects, you just find those things that work for you.

re going to probably want to [: 00:19:00

Ross: and it makes it easier.

you're not pretending to be someone you're not.

Jess: exactly. Exhausting.

Ross: If you can really explore your identity as a leader and develop A concept of what that authentic leader would act like, how they would behave, it gives you a framework that's really flexible to enable you to think, what's important to me about being a leader?

How can I translate that into my behavior? How can I translate that into this difficult conversation? How can I translate that into managing my boundaries at work? How can I translate that into role modeling? Effective recovery from work.

I'm talking about those leaders who send emails at 30 at night. Which can quite quickly become seen as a badge of honour.

that the first person to respond is really showing that they committed. Yeah,

ss: that they don't expect a [: 00:20:00

around actually wanting a response.

What's the problem with leadership development

Ross: So, let's try and articulate

it. What's the, what's the problem

with leadership development? in broad terms that we see?

Leadership dev is a bit complicated with fads and trends

Jess: I just think. that we've probably made it a bit too complicated that because there's fads.

I think you sent me a great article around, leadership styles and certain kind of titles and each of these styles kind of comes in and out of vogue each couple of years. And actually the article you sent was that effectively it was a research piece that looked at 12 different types of leadership styles. Effectively, what they found was that they have more similarities than they do differences.

Ross: hmm,

novation, that kind of thing?[: 00:21:00

And just pull everything back, simplify things, be a bit more, clear in terms of, What it is that we're trying to do, where is it that we're trying to go, try to understand your people, try to, be a bit more human centered, and that's not just about being, you know, a nice person,

but just focus on the people that are in front of you, what are their situations, what are their contexts,

how could you give them as much as you can, give some flexibility, understand, know yourself, and be able to kind of, just, yeah, pull back, simplify.

Ross: I like that. Pull back and simplify because sometimes an organization or a leadership development program might introduce a leadership model. Which goes back to our conversation in part one about it can be helpful to organize the world by making assumptions. But then we're kind of assuming that every leader is the same.

And once a leader tries to

squeeze themselves into a leadership model thinking, right, this is how I need to be,

that takes up energy.

Jess: massively.

ss: And it restricts them as [: 00:22:00

And sometimes that might be the right thing to do, but sometimes they're really limiting themselves and squeezing themselves into a cage, which,

which uses energy and makes them

Money spent on leadership programmes

Jess: Absolutely. And,

you know, there's, depending on which piece of research you look at, you know, there's something like 50 billion dollars spent, On leadership programs annually.

So are you making sure that everybody there knows why they're there?

le work? Are you being clear [: 00:23:00

do those leaders have support? What does that support look like? you know, and are we evaluating the change or the shift or the behavior or whatever is being noticed? Maybe it's, I think differently. I feel differently. I, I noticed differently. Great. I think we have a tendency to focus on kind of one or two very specific measures of was this leadership Program successful or not.

Have we seen X on the bottom line versus if somebody is feeling more confident, if somebody is telling you that they can think differently, they can think and think more clearly, they can make decisions more freely. That to me is invaluable. As a measure.

Ross: if people can say, oh, it's changed my perspective, or I feel like I've got more tools in my leadership toolkit now to approach challenges in a different way that's more effective, rather than

es and the room was too hot. [: 00:24:00

Jess: Thank you for your feedback, it wasn't

that helpful. but if that's what sticks in someone's

Yeah, yeah,

Ross: it's a little bit worrying.

Jess: Missed the point.

Human Centered Leadership

Ross: So Jess, we've been talking about crafting our own approach to leadership development. a part of that is loosely based on an approach from another paper about human centered leadership.

Would you mind just expanding on that a little?

Jess: so this one's a, a Harvard, paper and this particular one is around how human centered leadership helps people adapt to change. But I think, you know, if you were going to say there's nothing in life more certain than death and taxes, you could probably add change into there as well. especially in, the world we're living in currently, which is a whole other.

Aspect to leadership that we haven't even touched on, but I think maybe the phrase human centered leadership might lead people to think, oh, well, that's, that's nice, or that's my dreaded word, fluffy.

it's absolutely couldn't be [: 00:25:00

but it's more actually a disciplined approach to leadership, and what this paper is saying that it really helps people to feel valued, connected and confident in their professional growth. And so if you link that sentence to what you said around relentlessness, what we were talking about around self compassion, self identity, knowing our worth, knowing what we value, understanding ourselves to better lead help other people, then to me, they go hand in hand.

en by others, helping people [: 00:26:00

I actually think it's a really practical and useful view of Leadership. Yeah.

Power of the Pause

Ross: is focused on the human and also brings humanity to, to the workplace too. Yeah, I love that article. And I love the way you describe it as pulling back, because I think that pause is so important for leaders. To just pause and think, how is this going? Who am I being? What impact am I having?

Am I really being the leader I want to be? And that can feel really uncomfortable. And sometimes leaders will just want to continue at pace, rather than contemplate a self reflective conversation like that. But our stances, we need to start with that inner work in our leadership development programs.

We start with that inner work. So let's just try and unpack that for the peacekeepers. What do we

mean by that inner work?

t leadership development is, [: 00:27:00

And, if we can bring some pause some. reflection, some compassion, some empathy, just pause for thought. And that doesn't have to mean you have to in a dark room for five days or go to Nepal. It's like, how do you build in those simple practical tools and techniques every day to go, I'm feeling something here, what's this about?

r just asking yourself those [: 00:28:00

Ross: I love the way you describe it because this is where I bring act and to leadership and looking at leadership through the act lens and helping people realize that the mind produces lots of content, things like thoughts, emotions, memories, sensations, or that didn't work well last time, or I'm no good at that, or I'm going to be discovered for the fraud and the charlatan that I am.

And all that can sap energy, limit behavioural repertoire,

Jess: Yeah.

Ross: it can be, people don't let their true leadership light shine in all its flawed yet authentic ways. there's something you said from that paper earlier about intellectual honesty and it actually add intellectual humility to that as well. That

for a leader to recognize that they don't have all the answers and that's okay.

Jess: Absolutely.

an be an enormous story that [: 00:29:00

Or they need to be an expert in all the jobs below them.

No, that's why you have experts below you, for you to trust and rely upon them. So this inner work is so important, it's about relating to what our minds are doing. And for me, and I know for you, it's about How do they want to be as a leader? What qualities do they want to bring to their leadership behavior?

And that could be unique for each leader. The combination of personal values and meaning that they want to bring to their leadership roles. And then using them as a guide for how they communicate. How they make decisions. How they relate to difficult colleagues. They can all be a guide for them, to enable them to show up in an authentic way, but we also know that using our values as a guide is really good for our

well being and our health at work, which is super important for leaders too.

Given the choice of the leader that you are

gives you a choice in terms [: 00:30:00

choosing to be, not this is the leader that I am told is a fad for the next three years in a certain style that is being kind of put upon me.

You know, I have a choice. I can think about this. I can think about the, the human being that I am.

In this role, because, you cannot separate yourself, as we know, from your home to your work. You are still the same person. If you're trying to be two different, very different people, you're going to be very exhausted. So why not bring your most of yourself to work and recognize that work is I suppose a context in an environment in a situation that is unlike any other really, you know, you choose your friends, you don't really get to choose who you work with.

So you're in this scenario where you're bound by certain rules and behaviors and values, ways of working. Why not try to make it easier for yourself and try to.

ur nuances and all that good [: 00:31:00

Try to be as honest as appropriate and bring your, bring yourself to work. because it's just quite hard if you're trying to do the opposite. Yeah, And,

Noticing is a superpower

Ross: in our inner work is that word we've mentioned quite a few times, is noticing. This can be a superpower for human beings in general, but particularly for leaders. Perhaps to notice the environment around them, notice opportunities and threats.

Notice how they're showing up and impacting on others, because quite often we're just operating on autopilot. We've got a stimulus, boom, and a response. That we just do. Like we're driving a car and if we can just pause in that moment, it's another type of pause. It's a pause in the moment and think, do I need to adjust my trajectory in my behavior to suit this circumstances and this context I find myself in?

ding for leaders in terms of [: 00:32:00

maintain their well being. Um, um,

um, yeah,

Changing habits incrementally

Jess: in our own mind can really help us. So, you know, before going into a meeting before there's a person, you know, you have a particular difficulty with, how do I want to be in this meeting? This isn't working. I'm on autopilot.

Things just keep snowballing. I never get even a second to think and it doesn't have to take a long time. I think a lot of what we hear, And I know certainly I hear, I don't have time for this or, you know, I can't, this seems really difficult. And it is ultimately, I suppose, changing habits and changing how you think.

for you, in a language, in a [: 00:33:00

Give yourself a toilet break.

Ross: You're so right because a leader could be in a meeting but their mind is stuck in the meetings, two meetings before the meeting that they're actually in.

Jess: absolutely.

Ross: Or it's in a meeting tomorrow

where the CEO has asked to speak to them and they're worrying about that. So they're not present in the meeting that they're

in.

It's exhausting,

Jess: See that day, every day. It's also understandable.

Ross: yeah,

Part of our role to help people see an alternative

ole to people see a helpful, [: 00:34:00

Ross: of leadership development, the fundamental part, the first part, is this inner work. developing these skills and experiencing these skills, getting an experience of them in our sessions. And then encouraging them and supporting them to practice these outside of a session.

To hopefully start to not only activate these skills as new parts of their toolkit, but install them. So they become things they turn to and in time they become so automatic that they can just call upon these when they wish, including the pause, including the relating to those pesky minds of ours and all the emotions, thoughts, and sensations that they throw up and thinking about who we want to be.

It's such a gift to leaders to support them in doing this. And we would expect this would impact in terms of

more [: 00:35:00

as they evolve through their leadership journey.

Jess: yep, absolutely. Because I suppose the alternative

is, you know, let's help you focus on other things that you can learn to help other people. It's like, well, let's stop that for a moment and let's go back to you to help you understand that you, in a lot of situations, obviously some you don't, but that you do have a choice.

ve, if you can notice it and [: 00:36:00

and be honest with people to say, I can't give you X, Y, and Z today, but I can give it to you tomorrow. Just, you can't be all things to all people. It's kind of the, the great leadership paradox. I'm expected to be all things to all people, which is impossible.

Ross: then quite often leaders end up being the last thing on their own to do list, their own self care. And it strikes me of a quote I Often used in training from Viktor Frankl

Jess: That's

Ross: who said, Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our

response. And in our response lies our growth and our freedom.

Jess: one of my faves.

t for me it really speaks to [: 00:37:00

So in our leadership program this is the foundation. Then we can move on. to developing more specific

contextual skills.

Jess: Because we, we need to understand ourselves, we need to have energy and compassion and space within ourselves to be able to then project that. Externally, or to give to our people, or to

Ross: that type of content for the, for the, if you like the outer work or the external work

Jess: Absolutely.

Ross: be things like,

let's have a go at naming some, decision making. communicating effectively. Managing challenging conversations.

Jess: Yep. Managing teams and understanding team dynamics and, differences.

What people [: 00:38:00

Ross: Building collaboration and cooperation in teams.

Jess: Mm hmm.

Understanding context and rehearsal

Ross: Yeah. And we would build that around the requirements of the organization because I think we've said the word context quite a lot. But we're seeking to understand the context of that organization. What are the issues for the people who are working in leadership roles in this

Marker

Ross: organization? So we make it applicable and useful,

and fun as well.

We're giving them a chance to rehearse scenarios in our training,

because that's the most effective way

to kind of practice having a go. Um,

start from the start, start [: 00:39:00

Ross: Yeah, absolutely. So we would be honouring the organisation and the individuals we were developing a programme for, to respect that and address it.

Which is why we haven't developed a Kind of one size fits all leadership development plan.

Jess: Yeah.

Ross: What we've given here is the broad flavor of the two main components.

And we would seek to get to know the context of the organization

in our work and in our preparatory

work and our design work.

rt of, start of this. And so [: 00:40:00

So we need to understand that too. be able to, to, to best work with you, to understand your context and be as relevant as possible.

Ross: Jess, I wonder if you had a takeaway for the peace supers?

Jess: absolutely. I think I. Based on the fact that we've talked about a few different aspects, I suppose it feels like a little bit of a, a cyclical takeaway maybe. But I suppose what I'd say is that there really is an ongoing leadership paradox where leaders are facing sometimes overwhelming and really unrealistic expectations to be everything to everyone.

what I'm proposing and what [: 00:41:00

And I think true leadership begins with knowing oneself, recognizing our personal capabilities, our limitations, how to manage them, and just as importantly, how to live authentically.

Ross: Beautifully put, Jess. Yeah. Thanks for bringing that all together for us. It's something we've been talking about for a while, so I'm excited to share it with the P Supers. And folks, if you're interested in a conversation with me and Jess about this, please do get in touch.

You'll find our details in the show notes. And we'd love to talk to you about your requirements as an individual or as an organization. Jess, thanks so much for joining me. It's been a delight

as ever and look forward to working with you more in the future.

ou too. It's been absolutely [: 00:42:00

Ross: That's it, folks, part two of my chat with Jess in the bag. now, if you're interested in our approach to leadership development, please don't hesitate to get in touch. You can email Jess and that address is jess@jessicaleeconsulting.com and my email address isRoss@rossmcintosh.co uk. We'd love to hear from you, get your perspectives, and maybe have a conversation about your requirements.

If you like this episode, we'd love it if you told us why. You can email at people soup dot pod@gmail.com. On the socials, there's been a bit of a change. I've stopped posting on Twitter because I no longer value the place it has become. I've also retired my Facebook page as my confidence in the platform has greatly diminished.

n LinkedIn too, as well as a [: 00:43:00

So please do share, subscribe, rate, and review. Thanks to Andy Glen for his Spoon Magic and Alex Engelberg for his vocals. But most of all, dear listener, thanks to you.

Look after yourselves. Peace supers and buy. For now.

Jess: I need a better chair.

Ross: Congratulations.

Jess: Congratulations. That was my first podcast.

Thanks,

Ross: It's a new, it's a new venture today.