The Road Less Paved with Lucinda Soon

MASTER PART 1

Ross: [: 00:00:00

Lucinda: there have been points along the way where I've had to remind myself, you know, you are doing this because of, the love for, for the topic.

Making Small Dents

Lucinda: The need to understand and hopefully to, make a little small dent. 'cause we can all just, you know, individually make small dents in trying to make change, positive change. but if we all did that and we all made small dents and, you know, the change that we collectively could achieve would be massive.

Ross: P Supers in this episode, you'll meet Lucinda soon. Lucinda is a qualified solicitor and expert in professional ethics, wellbeing, and legal services regulation.

She's also a PhD candidate at Birkbeck University of London,

w and advising on legal risk [: 00:01:00

Lucinda also talks about her commitment to bridging the gap between academic research and practical application in the legal profession the conversation delves into key moments in her career, the importance of continual learning and the value of pursuing a non-linear squiggly career path.

For those of you who are new to People Soup, welcome. It's great to have you here.

which was called Rethinking [: 00:02:00

and this was on LinkedIn from Beatrice Dowell. Beatrice said, Know thyself, great podcast, Jess and Ross. Definitely worth a listen for anyone looking to grow and develop in the workplace.

tioned some new offerings for: 2025

it's training I developed with Dr. Paul Flaman and I've delivered it to thousands of adults in the workplace. It's for people who are interested in navigating their working lives more effectively. It'll help them consider what really matters and what might be getting in the way of them being the person they'd really like to be.

notes, so let's crack on for [: 00:03:00

Get a brew on and have a listen to the first part of my chat with Lucinda soon.

Lucinda soon. Welcome to People Soup.

Lucinda: Hi, lovely to be here. Thanks for the invitation.

citor of England and Wales in: 2009

She has spent the past decade advising lawyers and law firms on ethics and legal risk management with corporate clients, ranging from startups to established uk,

US, and global law firms. How's that for a start? Does that sound right?

Lucinda: Yes. No, I think that's fine.

I don't need to reprimand my [: 00:04:00

Lucinda now devotes her time equally between academia, empirical research and teaching and practice, working with legal sector organizations and policy makers on research and consultancy basis. Lucinda received her MSC in psychology with distinction from the University of East London in 2019, graduating top of her cohort.

She was awarded the Dean of School award for academic excellence and her thesis on wellbeing in the UK's solicitors profession was subsequently published in the International Journal of the Legal Profession. There's more, I just, when I was preparing

this, I was just, was thinking, my goodness, Lucinda's such a busy person,

Lucinda: It looks a lot better on paper, I think, than maybe I'm good. Well, let's, let's, let's see.

the influence of contextual [: 00:05:00

You are a published researcher and your other research includes a systematic review of lawyers wellbeing, published in psychiatry, psychology, and law. The first ever review of its kind to map and synthesize the global literature on this topic over the past 50 years, and we'll come back to that. Lucinda also conducts research and lectures at the Dixon Poon School of Law King's College London, leading the Psychology for Legal Practitioners module on the MSC Law and Professional Practice Program.

Alongside her academic research and teaching. Lucinda is an independent researcher and consultant to the legal sector. She works with organizations and policy makers to advance ethical and healthy working environments in law. I've got a little bit more Lucinda.

evidence base with practical [: 00:06:00

Elected co-chair for the International Bar Association Professional Wellbeing Commission, and an officer of the IBA Academic and

Professional Development Committee. Wow. How is that? Does that capture most things?

Lucinda: I think so, yes. Thank you.

Ross: Now there's, there's one other thing. They noted Lucinda, which which isn't confirmed anywhere.

So I just wanted to run it past you because if it's true, I'm a little bit jealous. Well, a lot of it jealous, but I've heard that in your PhD research, your supervisors are an absolute dream team.

Lucinda: I have the perfect dream team. yes,

Ross: Is it true that it's Almuth

McDowell and Kevin Teo?

luckiest PhD student in the [: 00:07:00

Ross: Well, goodness me,

I just can't imagine a more wonderful combo.

Lucinda: Yeah, I mean, it's, it's such a dream to have both of them. you know, really, I think when you're doing a PhD, you really wanna be learning from like the best, uh, and, you know, um, they're both brilliant. and it's just, the learning, the learning journey for me, and learning from, you know, their experiences, their different angles that they approach things, in, it's just about, yeah, I'm, I'm very lucky.

Ross: Yeah, yeah, I hold them in very, very high regard

and have immense affection and admiration for them. So, congratulations.

Lucinda: Thank you.

Ross: so, Lucinda, I've told, I've told the listener a bit about your achievements, your career, your research, what you're doing right now. But I wonder if you could tell us a little bit more about your career path to date, maybe some of the pivotal moments

along the way.

term, isn't it? Like a, the [: 00:08:00

and so, you know, I, I went, to law school, did my degree in law very much kind of the traditional path. Did, did my, you know, after doing your law degree, if you wanna enter p practice, you would do kind of, you choose kind of whichever path you want to choose. And I chose the solicitors path and then I went on to do my, what they call the legal practice course, uh, which is kind of postgrad, step towards that.

ce, I would say. and then, in: 2017

'cause I think I've always been, someone, I, I just need to keep learning. I mean, I see the, the beauty in it, the, the benefits of it. [00:09:00] you know, for my own personal wellbeing as well, learning is something which I really thrive off. initially, I chose to go back to university, to learn psychology for my own benefit.

'cause I just want, it was always something which I've always been interested in, wanted to, learn more about, but in a structured way. And I thought, you know, this is what I want to do. So I went to do my master's. In psychology. and at that time I didn't really have any plan or anything about how I was going to use it.

It was purely, you know, it was great to be back at university. So much changed.

You know, they've had like recorded lectures, uh, which I'd never had, you know, back in my, in my first degree. but it was, it was great. And, yeah, so I, I, I did that and learned all about the, you know, different strands of psychology, but at the same time, I, I kind of did that at the same time that I was, working.

hat I was going to do for my [: 00:10:00

And also in the legal profession because it's a profession that I come from. Um, and it so happened at the same time that I was, you know, studying and thinking about what I would do for my, my thesis. the conversations, the awareness around mental health and wellbeing in the legal profession was rising.

And it, it kind of came at the same time as, a big case that came to the high court around that same time, um, of Sovani James. and it was the first time, where the rumblings around the challenges in terms of mental health, in the legal profession really came to the front of people's mind because it was, you know, it came before the high court and the high court really kind of delved into the working environment.

and people were questioning, [: 00:11:00

So I, I became fascinated in, in this because it was something that I was working on in my, in my day job, because it was around professional ethics and regulation. and so I really became very interested in, you know, understanding a bit more about this, you know, what, what factors from, and looking at it from a psychological perspective, you know, what do we know, um, from the wider psychological knowledge and evidence and theories that we could apply in the legal profession.

So that's what I focused on for my thesis. And then after my master's, it was a mixture of, Whenever I do research, I find that I have, I end up having more questions than when I started. Um, I answer some, but then I kind of, it opens up like a, it's like you're opening up a box and there's more questions that come up and I thought, oh, well I can't stop now.

, you know, research. and so [: 00:12:00

Ross: Yay.

Lucinda: um, and it was like, yeah, I think that was a pivotal moment for me.

and I think, you know, I just kind of went from there and then started my PhD, with them as my mentors still focused on, wellbeing in the legal profession, and answering more, more the questions that I had.

Ross: Mm. Wow. Thank you. So I'm seeing, I'm seeing a real love of learning, as you've said, and

this curiosity,

Lucinda: Yeah, I'm, I'm a very curious person. I've always been since I was a child.

Ross: and talk to us a bit about

going back to uni for the love of learning.

Lucinda: Oh, I, you know, I can't, I'm not sure I'll be able to

articulate it to really well enough. I mean, I think with my first degree, I mean, this is only my experience, but when I did my first degree, when I, you know, I was 18, uh, I didn't think I reflected as much at the time.

I'm [: 00:13:00

but there's something different. I think my second time going to university to learn psychology because there it was purely, I just wanted to learn the subject. and I dunno, I just felt it was, it was brilliant. It was just, I mean, I wish, to be honest, I wish I could go back and just keep doing it and just keep, just kind of be cycle round in that space when I was learning, psychology for the first time.

'cause psychology's such a interesting topic. There's so many, there's so many facets to it. So it's only different subjects within it.

by the British Psychological [: 00:14:00

but everything felt so new. Everything was exciting. Everything was, yeah. It was just brilliant. It was brilliant experience. I, I keep telling everyone, you should go back to university. Learn, learn more. Yeah.

Ross: Yeah, it's, it's, it's not a thing that occurs to a lot of people once you're on that sort

of life treadmill. I agree. I, I think I kind of went to uni because it was kind of expected

the first time.

And then there's a kind of an expectation you get, you get a job

and it's not as often that people then go back to uni.

I say that as someone, as someone who went back twice, so. I understand. I think

I had that kind of thirst for a bit more knowledge and a bit more

research into the different perspectives on things. I did one in human resource management and one on organizational psychology.

Lucinda: Yeah.

Ross: And you're right, I loved that time

actually. And going back as

I was going back as a mature [: 00:15:00

Lucinda: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, because you've had the kind of, the experience

of life more, you know, more experiences in terms of the workplace, and it's just the environment as well, I think, you know, in terms of the seminars. the lectures were amazing 'cause you'd just be kind of fed all this knowledge and you're assimilating it and you're thinking, wow, now, you know, I've got more questions.

But yeah, the, the seminars, it was just wonderful to be around others again, but in that learning environment, kind of bouncing off thoughts and questions and, yeah, it's just a wonderful experience and I think, yeah, I, I definitely recommend to anyone, just going or, you know, any short course, to just to go back and learn.

Ross: Yeah.

And you described your squiggly path. I like a squiggly path,

Lucinda: I think. it's quite nice as well.

Ross: I think people who, uh. Who have a squiggly path, I think it's they're prepared to explore. So I see you as an explorer. I also see you when I was, when I was looking at your

bio, I was seeing you as [: 00:16:00

Lucinda: you know, no one's ever actually observed that, which is really nice because to me that's really important to me. even when I went into law, one of the drivers for, for me, apart from the fact that it was kind of expected to kind of go down that path, but one of the core drivers for me is that actually as a lawyer, you, you provide a service.

it's, you know, the whole I, the notions and ideas of you are, you are providing a service, you are providing access to justice. You are, all of that combined is something which I've always had in me. and it's always been quite important that I have to have, I think that's been something that's core to whatever I do, um, that I feel that it's almost like there's a purpose, there's a meaning, behind it that's going to be of benefit to people, and, you know, broader society.

I, I, it's really important [: 00:17:00

Ross: Yeah, because I really see the practical nature of your research and the papers you published already, but also your research database.

Lucinda: Mm.

Ross: to support people into understanding the link

and appreciating the link and using research that that could be useful and practical for them.

The Research Database

so much work into, you know, [: 00:18:00

And I think it's, yeah, it's wonderful to, that I can help to contribute to that. Um, but it's, you know, it would benefit the legal profession, the legal sector immensely because otherwise you risk kind of the worst case scenarios. you risk thinking that there is nothing at all out there in the world to help with these, challenges.

And then you think, well, I've gotta start from scratch. Or you, embark on initiatives and, and strategies which actually might be more harmful than, than not, because we don't have the, you know, they, the, the knowledge is, is not getting through. and so, yeah, I think that's, uh, yeah, that's probably, uh, another kind of big part of,

Ross: Hmm.

Lucinda: you know, what I consider really important to me.

Ross: Yeah. And I see courage there as well. Lucinda,

Lucinda: Oh, I dunno about that.

Ross: let me, [: 00:19:00

bar council

Lucinda: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Ross: Frankly, I think it, I think it's courageous to embark on a PhD. I.

Lucinda: Yes. I think that, okay. Yes. And I think that, that I

agree with. Um, I, but, um, I, yeah, I mean, I always started, um, off my PhD with, obviously when I was thinking about doing my PhD, I sought advice from various people. And I read a lot, you know, on the internet about, how challenging it can be and how it's, you know, you, you, you've really gotta do it because of your, your love for, for it, for the topic that you're researching.

Love of Learning

. but there have been points [: 00:20:00

Making Small Dents

Lucinda: The need to understand and hopefully to, make a little small dent. 'cause we can all just, you know, individually make small dents in trying to make change, positive change. but if we all did that and we all made small dents and, you know, the change that we collectively could achieve would be massive.

so just re reminding myself of, of that because, you know, I think what I read about doing a PhD is kind of all true. There are there ups and downs. It's the reality of it because it's, It's meant to be, you know, challenging. but yeah, just reminding myself of what the, why, why, why are you doing it, has been helpful.

Ross: So thinking about your legal career, what, what led you down that route of becoming interested in ethics and, and wellbeing? what was the

way into that for you?

bit by accident? because of, [: 00:21:00

I'll just carry on, see what's, what's ahead. Um, so I, uh, I actually, when I qualified, I, I was, a civil litigator. So I practiced in civil litigation, nothing to do with ethics or regulation at all. and it was only after about three years after I qualified that I, um, I was unsure about.

Whether I really enjoyed what I was doing. Um, and I was thinking, you know, you know when you feel, I'm not sure whether I'm, you know, I'm learning lots, but I'm not sure whether this is quite for me. and so I was looking around for, for other jobs, and I came across one at the Solicitor's Regulation Authority.

landed there by accident, I [: 00:22:00

It so happened that I, you know, applied for the job and then ended up loving the work, um, and loving the, kind of the nature of the work. And then kind of stayed there for a bit and then moved on, to advise firms and organizations, uh, on the ethical standards.

Ross: So it feels like you've got a level of awareness

about yourself and whether you are

in the right place.

Awareness or being stubborn

Lucinda: that's a really nice way of putting it, because I have been, so, my parents used to say that I am, rather than it being on awareness, uh, that I'm, I'm very stubborn, so wherever I kind of set my thoughts on in terms of, say another way, if I'm not particularly happy in what I'm doing.

Life's too short

nd learning. I mean, I don't [: 00:23:00

but there was something inherently, uh, you know, for me I thought, there was something missing. So, um, and if I hadn't done that, I wouldn't have, you know, learned all the, the things I've learned and met all the people I've met along the way. I think that's possibly the most important.

'cause you meet so many interesting people. If you just follow, follow where your heart almost is saying you should go down this path and just see what happens.

Ross: Yeah. Here. You're saying it was a comfortable job. It paid you well,

the response to many people to that would be,

Yeah.

better just stay, even though they've got that sort of itch. it takes a certain mindset to, to explore. Or perhaps it takes a certain stubbornness to,

I dunno, I, I wouldn't call it stubbornness at

all, but I think that, I'm gonna call it resolute tenacity.

Lucinda: Oh, I like that. I might use that next time.

ow do you like that resolute [: 00:24:00

Lucinda: Yes.

Ross: Now, now Lucinda, you know that my specialism is, is in

act acceptance and commitment therapy. Just wondered if you've come across it.

Lucinda: Well, I came across it from you, um, because, um, well, you know, uh, as, as I'm sure your listeners will know, that you speak a lot, you know, you, you focus on this area and you deliver lectures at Birkbeck University, which is where I'm doing my PhD. And, uh, and I think I was there for one of your earliest, renditions of, of that.

and so I was very lucky to be there in the audience. and so I, I learned it from you.

Ross: Blimey.

Lucinda: obviously, I mean, I, I think I, um, I only scratch the surface in terms of what I know. and there's, again, I always, I always say there's always more to know. Um, so yeah,

Ross: Well, thank you. That wasn't, that question wasn't designed as me pleading for validation.

Lucinda: I

one of the, the lectures at [: 00:25:00

Lucinda: yeah.

Ross: I've never studied at Birkbeck

Lucinda: mm-hmm.

Ross: I was almost gonna say yet,

Lucinda: Yes. You should go back.

Ross: I think, I think you are, you're leading me into different thoughts, but there's a special fondness for Birkbeck, partly because of people like Almuth and Kevin and also for the learners there. The, the lecture I did in January this year. There was such curiosity there, there was

Lucinda: Mm-hmm.

Ross: interest and engagement from people going, but hang on.

And I love that because that helps me develop myself. It helps me challenge my

thinking. It helps me realize that, oh my goodness, I never realized that it could be landing in that way for somebody.

So, I do love my little

trips to, to Burke back.

n, Beck currently has a very [: 00:26:00

Like all of them, they're just, the passion and dedication that they all show towards what they do is just incredible. Which passes on to the people, you know, the students because they, they see that, they see that these people, you know, they're not just turning up for lectures and not really wanting to be there.

They're all dedicated to their, their discipline and. But the whole ethos around the university, how it began, you know, the history around it, uh, I think it's just very special. It really stands out compared to when you look up, you know, some other

universities.

Ross: I agree. I agree. There's a, there's a degree of role modeling in the

Lucinda: Mm.

Ross: org site department It's like creating a, an organization, a business if you

will,

and people are mirroring the people at the top. And I think that gives it a special sort of

energy and culture.

[: 00:27:00

God, these two must be on some sort of sponsorship deal

with

Lucinda: Mm-hmm.

No, we're not.

Ross: can assure you we're not. It's just a place that is, is very special. Now, Lucinda, if, if I said to you, oh, you've got this opportunity to give some advice to your younger self, maybe Lucinda at school, I. Is there anything you'd tell Lucinda at school

from your viewpoint from now?

Lucinda: probably quite a lot. Uh, I'd probably say just to be more confident. Um, and I still struggle with that, I mean with confidence. and more specifically with confidence around, Not doubting yourself. 'cause even though, you know, what I've might have come across during this conversation is like, wow, you know, she's just, had, had, had a job but then wasn't, particularly happy or didn't feel quite right then actually was quite bold and went over and did her own thing.

s where, it, well, it didn't [: 00:28:00

less bothered about, I think actually I was gonna say less bothered about what other people think.

king, well, what would other [: 00:29:00

Who would I be failing if I, if I, you know, if I left my high paid job, you know, and actually pursue something which might make me a bit happier, I, who would be upset by that? who would I have failed in, in that decision? I, I think that's a natural thing to think, but, if I was gonna speak to my younger self, it's probably think not so much about that.

Ross: Nice. Thank you. There's a traditional people soup question coming up Now, Lucinda, which is the one that people go, oh, people probably spend the most time thinking about this in preparation for an interview, but here we go. Your song choice. This song choice would announce your arrival in a room, whether it's a real room or a virtual room.

Not forever, but for the next maybe

two months, but it would play every time you, like when you entered the supermarket, when you entered your

home or logged onto a virtual meeting, this

song, a bit of this song would play. So what's, what would

your choice be and, and why?

Lucinda: So I did think about this. This was a

that, that did make me think [: 00:30:00

and I wouldn't, wouldn't mind it playing constantly everywhere just because, The words around it are, are really quite good. but it's the whole message that comes across with this song, which is to not worry so much about, uh, where life might take you. think about, you know, not necessarily, wealth or success in kind of the traditional, uh, forms that we might consider them, but based on happiness and contentment and with life continue learning, I think it kind of emulates what I would dream my life, to be, and which I hope I am kind of more kind of emulating as I'm, as I'm going older with the choices that I'm making.

o. To just live life, day by [: 00:31:00

if there is a road and it's not properly paved and shiny, but you, feel that actually this is the road I should go down because it could lead to something. take that road. And I just like the idea of it being. That message that comes across, I've probably not articulated that well and probably, you know, if Jason was listening to this, you probably say, well, she's got completely the wrong message from that song.

But, you know, it's,

Ross: Well, Lucinda, let's, let's just say in case he is listening, let us know what you think of Lucinda's interpretation of that.

Brilliant. That's wonderful. I love the idea of finding your own road

leaving a path behind you. [: 00:32:00

That's it folks. Part one of my chat with Lucinda in the bag, but fear not Lucinda will be back next week when we'll explore more about lawyer wellbeing. You'll find the show notes for this episode@peoplesoupcaptivate.fm or wherever you get your podcasts. If you like this episode, we'd love it if you told us why.

You can email me at people soup dot pod@gmail.com. Now, there's been some changes on the socials piece. Supers, I'm no longer posting on Twitter and I've retired my Facebook page. My confidence in both platforms has diminished greatly. I'm still just about posting on Instagram at People Soup, and I'm on LinkedIn too, as well as a new account on Blue Sky.

for his vocals. But most of [: 00:33:00

Peace supers and bye for now.

Lucinda: you know, if Jason was listening to this, you probably say, well, she's got completely the wrong message from that song.

But, you know, it's,

Ross: Well, Lucinda, let's, let's just say in case he is listening, let us know what you think of Lucinda's interpretation of that.