Meet Dr Anne Finucane - Marie Curie Senior Research Fellow

Anne Edited

Ross: [: 00:00:00

Anne: So we think that, you know, approaches such as acceptance and commitment therapy or ACT can be very helpful in supporting these processes because many people, including staff and individuals themselves, find it very hard to initiate these conversations. So thinking about using, approaches like ACT that help you kind of recognize that discomfort, but also recognize why it's important to have these conversations and hone in on people's values, what's important to them, what they might like to do, even if they are not as mobile as they might be, or they're not able to travel as far as they would like, but they still want to connect with those important to them.

Anne's colleagues, Dr. David [: 00:01:00

In this episode, we'll get to know a bit more about Anne. Anne shares her journey from studying international marketing to following her curiosity and shifting to psychology.

She describes her pivotal moments, including when she discovered Acceptance and Commitment Therapy Act and realized its potential applications

And talks about the importance of palliative care and its impact on the quality of life for many people, I had no idea that a large proportion of the deaths in the UK will involve some form of palliative care. She also talks about bereavement support and the integration of ACT, and helping individuals cope with grief.

le in the workplace, and the [: 00:02:00

For those of you who are new to People Soup, welcome. It's great to have you here. We aim to provide you with the ingredients for a better work life from behavioral science and beyond. For those of you who are regular peace Soupers, thanks for tuning in again, we'd love it that you're part of our community.

Let's scoot over to the news desk. Firstly, those with heightened noticing skills will have spotted there's been a mid-season break. This was a combination of work and life events, which gave rise to an unplanned break out. I'd like to give a special shout out to Pup Katherine g and say thanks again for checking in and for your support.

or those applying act in the [: 00:03:00

So let's crack on for now. Get a brew on and have a listen to my chat with Anne Anne Finucane and David Gillanders, welcome to People Soup.

David: Thank you.

Anne: Hi, Ross. Great to be here.

Ross: Well, I'm delighted to have you both here. We're gonna find out a bit more about you both to begin with, but then I'm gonna move on to your brilliant project, my grief my way.co uk. and Anne, I'm gonna start with you if that's all right.

y of Edinburgh. Her research [: 00:04:00

Anne: Um, no comment on that, Ross. I'm gonna keep that one under wraps.

Ross: Oh my God. I can't wait to see the outfit Anne. So Anne, I've presented a brief insights from my research department, but I wonder if you could tell us a bit more about your career to date and how you've got to where you've got to

maybe with some pivotal moments along the way.

actually originally started [: 00:05:00

so. I'd met my future husband at that time, and he was from Scotland. So we both decided in, the early two thousands to return to university as mature students. So I moved over to Edinburgh and I undertook a, a master's in then a PhD in psychology. And so I really enjoyed that. And by the end of my studies then I had an opportunity to take up a, a teaching fellow role, a temporary role, um, which gave me an opportunity to continue some research and also get some experience of, [00:06:00] of teaching in the Department of Psychology at Edinburgh.

However, as normal life goes on at the same time. And, um, I was soon on maternity leave and so I was off for a year. So then I kind had this, period of, uh, out with the, a academia and then. When I was ready to come back, I had to start again looking for roles as a postdoctoral fellow or a lecturer.

And I also wanted to stay around Edinburgh, is that where my, my home was based. So for during this search period, I found a advert for a research lead at our local hospice, so Mary Curie Hospice in Edinburgh. And, uh, so this appealed to me. Um, my, uh, sister is a palliative care nurse in Ireland, so I knew had a good sense of the work that was involved in palliative care from her.

larly in need and people who [: 00:07:00

I wasn't shortlisted initially, partly because I didn't have any, uh. Palliative care experience, but as it turned out, I was the person that got the job and it worked out really well. I loved working at Mary Kay Hospice. Um, I really enjoyed the aspect of working with a multidisciplinary team, so engaging with doctors, nurses, allied healthcare professionals, and, and also working with people whose main focus was on caring for a seriously ill person and their families.

so it always kind of made the, the work really tangible for us what was, what we needed to do. And I also thought that I, there was a role for research and evidence in this setting, and Mary Curie is a, a national charity in the uk. It provides, um, hospice based support and palliative care services in the community to people across the uk.

lso a good deal of, need for [: 00:08:00

So in 2021, the funding model changed a little and I joined, uh, the Department of Clinical Psychology with David. So still funded by Mary Curie through a. Five-year fellowship. so David and I started working very closely together. Then. Now, what I forgot to say, which was really pivotal was in 2014 I attended a conference where I was presenting some of our regular research.

And I happened upon a talk that was being delivered by David Gillanders and Ray Owen on something called Acceptance and Commitment Therapy. And so this, uh, seminar was a little bit kind of off the beaten track. There was a few car doors that you had to go down to find the room. And eventually I got there and when I got there, I saw the place was totally full.

ential for use in palliative [: 00:09:00

So for me, that was a pivotal moment in terms of then inviting David out to the hospice and having the great opportunity of working with David on a number of, projects and other. Collaborators like, uh, professor Nick Holbert Williams in Chester, and Dr. Brooks swash in Chester.

Nick actually is now at, uh, H Hill University. But uh, so that was also a pivotal moment, but then from my fellowship role, back at Edinburgh University, David and I have worked together, to develop a program of work using ACT for, bereavement and, uh, just looking at its potential and palliative care.

And that has been a really exciting, um, program of work that we are continuing to develop through my grief, my way, and also other, other projects,

ou so much for sharing a bit [: 00:10:00

Anne: international marketing and languages, French and Spanish.

Ross: BLI me. And so what, what hooked you about psychology? What was the interest? What, what made you do that, that pivot at that point?

Anne: Um, so, well I had always been interested in psychology and I read kind of popular psychology books. I think the first book I read maybe when I was around 16 or 17 was, uh, Dorothy Rowe. Um, Talking about. Yeah, so internalizing and externalizing behaviors, and I was always really interested in what caused people's behaviors, what motivated people, and just to understand a little bit more around, you know, why people made certain decisions.

them? You know, what kind of [: 00:11:00

But actually I didn't really know what psychology was when I was 16 or 17. We didn't really have a psychology course or training at high school level in Ireland. And um, my dad worked in marketing and said, this is very glamorous job, international marketing. You can travel and you know, it's the new thing.

You know, we've moved from sales to marketing and it's. Very creative. So I thought, oh, that sounds good, dad. So off I went and in my first year I thought, oh no, I wanted to do the psych. I wanted to understand people's behavior. 'cause then I realized I had a better understanding than you could actually do a degree in psychology.

Um, so I think that was it. It was just that the understanding others and understanding others, so then you could start to understand, well, what can you do to kind of help improve things where people are having difficulties or getting stuck with something in their lives?

And when I was checking you [: 00:12:00

And it can go as high as I think around 90.

Now, I might have got those figures wrong, I think, my point, well my reflection was, crikey, I didn't, uh, think it was that high.

vast majority of people who [: 00:13:00

you know, as opposed to in centuries gone by, people would've died from, um, infectious diseases. Um, an abscess as a result of a, that causes an infection as a result of a toothache from accidents and so on. But this has now shifted, so for most people, and, and people will die from, there's three really typical trajectories.

so cancer, a form of organ failure such as heart disease or, neurological illness, uh, or frailty and dementia.

Ross: Mm-hmm.

Anne: these are all illnesses that can be identified in advance. so. People can start to avail of palliative care should they need that. That doesn't necessarily mean palliative care is provided by hospice settings, but it could be, and for most people it would be a palliative care approach provided by healthcare and social care professionals in the community or in hospital settings.

nvolve, for instance, having [: 00:14:00

Some of these individuals might have, Admission to hospital during that admission, they might get good care and return home, or it might be determined that they might need to move to a care home or some sort of, uh, supported accommodation. Or it might be that they might end up dying in hospital.

d by Professor David Clark in: 2013

They could start those conversations around advanced care planning, around what would I do if, my health's deteriorated, if I wasn't able to cope on my own? And all of those conversations are part of, uh, you know, part of palliative care and part of thinking ahead. With the intention of, uh, supporting people to have good quality of life, even if their physical health is deteriorating and their time is limiting.

not as mobile as they might [: 00:16:00

So that's why we think that, um, approaches like ACT is very. Helpful and, you know, for the vast majority of people, um, you know, really, and I think there are different ways to measure the number of people that could benefit from palliative care. So as you say, the research provides a range depending on, on how you assess it.

Um, and some assessments at population level will just link, Palliative care with certain diagnoses and suggest if you have this diagnosis, it's likely you would benefit from a palliative care approach. you know, other really broad brush, methods might say, well, if you remove any, you know, accidents or sudden deaths, then what are the proportion of people that die during a given year?

uch as nine people. But even [: 00:17:00

that's quite a lot of people who are bereaved and who need to avail of some form of bereavement support.

then thinking about bereavement support, you can think, well, what kind of support do people need? And then we know that the vast majority of people will do well with support from family and friends.

We know grieving is a natural process and for most people, people adapt over time. and much of the evidence suggests that whereas about 60% of people do well with support from family and friends, about 30% of people could Benefit with some additional support. So this might be some volunteer led support or from other forms of group support or peer support available to them in the community or through their local church

or, support systems.

ally benefit from additional [: 00:18:00

For a large proportion of people it will be from a chronic, a long-term illness. And there are things that palliative care offers that can really ensure that despite that you have a good quality of life and help then prepare people for the loss and support people during bereavement.

Ross: Mm gosh. It's absolutely fascinating hearing you talk and so interesting it's not something we always talk about that much. And this is why I was so keen to get you both on the podcast because obviously grief touches people in the workplace.

Anne: Yeah.

Ross: Grief can impact on people quite significantly in the workplace, but also people in the workplace die and their colleagues will experience some form of grief.

th the legends that are Owen [: 00:19:00

Anne: I do try to apply act in my own life. and I guess it's been really helpful in particularly helping me focus on values and, uh, what's important.

Um, and I think, I think especially, it's quite tricky juggling different values as well and trying to focus on values in specific time points.

So I found that really helpful in terms of helping me to make decisions about what I want to do at a particular point in time. To be honest, I would like to do some more mindfulness exercises more regularly than I actually do. So this is, uh, just, I'm, I'm noticing that I'm actually coming back to that and, uh, that would be quite helpful for me.

been really helpful in terms [: 00:20:00

So I find that can be very useful, for me in lots of things in everyday life. I. But I would like to do more to, to um, uh, kinda engage more experientially in the mindfulness aspects. So I'm noticing that I'm saying that now.

g about your career to date, [: 00:21:00

What would you say to Anne at school?

Anne: So I probably would say follow your passion. Work out what it is that you love, and. Follow it. And I think when I was at school, I was probably a little bit too quick to do what, uh, I was told was probably a good option, probably quite practical option. Probably understandable that it was coming outta the eighties, which was quite a difficult period, in Ireland and e economically.

So it was very important that you find something that was quite, uh, that you could, you could get a good permanent job in. Um, no, I, I did sneak in when I was going to universities. I did sneak into the talks about communications and media, which was clear. That was a very, uh, transient job and you'd be going from contract to contract.

had the confidence to follow [: 00:22:00

Although all my experiences along the way have been really helpful and kind of shaped, uh, you know, what what I, what I do now and the way I work now. But I think follow your passion would be my main advice to myself back then.

Ross: Thank you, Anne. And a final question from me for now is your song choice.

Imagine you had a song that would announce your arrival in the room for not forever, but for the next two or three months. And this would announce you when you come home, when you walk into the supermarket, when you arrive in a meeting with David, this this song would play.

Have you any thoughts on what it would be and why?

living, didn't have a dime, [: 00:23:00

So that's my song. Uh. I know what I would, where I think would be really good to get to and where, what would be helpful. Not always sure how to get there or how to do it, but I have high hopes that things will work out and I think that's usually how I kind of come into a room, come into a space and I'm gonna my holidays soon, so I'm gonna have high hopes for the holidays.

Haven't done much planning yet, but I'm sure it will all work out and we'll have a great time. So that's my song choice.

Ross: Oh, brilliant. Thank you so much Shannon, and thank you. Thank you for making space to sit with the, the bit of the discomfort for coming on the show. I'm, I'm so pleased you're, you're here and I'm gonna give you a breather now because I'm gonna move on to our David

the University of Edinburgh. [: 00:24:00

If you like this episode, we'd love it if you told us why. You can email at People soup dot pod@gmail.com on the socials. I'm still posting on Instagram at People Soup. And I'm on LinkedIn too, as well as a new account on Blue Sky. Just search for my name

Now more than ever, you can help me reach more people with the special people, soup, ingredients, stuff that could be really useful for them. So please do share, subscribe, rate, and review. Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic and Alex Engelberg for his vocals. But most of all, dear listener, thanks to you.

Look after yourselves. Peace supers and bye for now.

Anne: Um, no comment on that, Ross. I'm gonna keep that one under wraps.

Ross: Oh my God. I can't wait to see the outfit Anne.