Meet Dr David Gillanders - The University of Edinburgh

David edited

Ross: [: 00:00:00

David: Absolutely, especially after that workshop with Sonya Batten, uh, in 2006. That was, that was the really the where, where it started, really growing a lot. so if, if, yeah, I think if you had met me back in, you know, the late nineties, early two thousands, you'd meet a very different person. Like I was really quite rigid and and a little bit, certainly my inner voice was pretty toxic. and, and a process I think of which act is a strong part has really helped me to. take perspective on that story. and to be more open, and, and more open to other people and a bit more connected with people. peace Super's. In this episode, you'll get to meet Dr. David Gillanders, who is a chartered clinical psychologist and senior lecturer at the University of Edinburgh. his research program exposed [00:01:00] psychological wellbeing and advanced illness, cancer and persistent health problems. It's the second of a three parter. Last week I chatted with David's colleague and for Newan, and in the third part, I'll talk to both Anne and David about their brilliant website, my grief my way.co.uk.

ny people, if not all people [: 00:02:00

For those of you who are new to People Soup, welcome. It's great to have you here. We aim to provide you with the ingredients for a better work life from behavioral science and beyond.

For those of you who are regular, peace supers, thanks for tuning in. Again, we love it that you're part of our community.

Let's scoot over to the news desk. Firstly, those with heightened noticing skills will have spotted there's been a mid-season break. This was a combination of work and life events, which gave rise to an unplanned break out. I'd like to give a special shout out to Pup Katherine g and say thanks again for checking in and for your support.

ck. In other news, the first [: 00:03:00

So let's crack on For now. Get a brew on and have a listen to my chat with David Goland. David, I'm gonna share with you what my research department came up with.

It's, it's a brief, it's a brief extract, and then we'll, do a bit of a deeper dive to get to know you a bit

the Scottish National Karate [: 00:04:00

Now, excuse me, I pronounce pronunciation there, but is that

David: That's right, Ross. Yeah, I, I did compete at the, the JKA National Scottish Championships. So kata is, uh, particular forms of karate where you're doing a sequence of movements. Imagining as if you're, uh, fighting multiple opponents at once. Uh, and you're, you're graded according to, there's not an actual opponent there, but you're kind of doing it and you're graded by the judges according to how well you do the, the particular form.

So that's Kata. I got bronze, and then KUT is actual fighting. It's, it's not, you know, you're not trying to hurt someone, but it is, it is contact to contact sport. And, uh, yeah, in my over forties category, I, I won the gold medal, so I was, I was really, really pleased and quite surprised about that. cause I didn't expect even to get into the finals.

So yeah, I was really pleased,

. Well, hats off to you and, [: 00:05:00

David: uh, in a way, yes, uh, you know, I'm not going around beating up colleagues or students or anything like that. But I think, uh, when you get up on the, It's called the Tami the mat. When you get up to do that, you know, your heart is racing and, and you're, you know, frankly, quite terrified. and you're deliberately putting yourself in that situation on purpose. And so I think, I think when you have been in that situation and, and you come through it, you, you then kind of realize that stressful situations that happen at work, difficult meetings, you're like, you're used to, I'm used to my heart racing.

I'm used to having butterflies in my stomach. This doesn't have to be too overwhelming, you know? so, so, so that, that, um, I think that part applies. And just, just keeping on breathing, you know, trying to relax, trying to notice am I holding myself unnecessarily tense? That, that kind of thing.

So.

Ross: Lovely. Thank you. [: 00:06:00

will. I.

book for English literature. [: 00:07:00

I was a, I was a, a graduate of city university, but coming towards the end of the, the degree I had no clue what I wanted to do.

For me being at university was just, that was it in itself. You know, I never, I never had a plan as such.

so I went to the careers counselor and said, look, I'm really worried. People keep asking me what I'm gonna do at the end of this degree, and I have no idea. And this ca counselor, career counselor said to me, well, is there anything you think you might like to do?

w what that is. And, uh, and [: 00:08:00

And then they moved on and I probably said it two or three times. And, and, you know, cognitive dissonance being what it is, I, I then started to look around, well, how do you get into this? How do you do it? And I started to find out and apply for assistant psychology jobs. Uh, and I literally applied for a hundred jobs back then,

uh, and finally got an interview, and was offered the job, uh, over in Cumbria in the South Lake District.

nt program, uh, over in, uh, [: 00:09:00

But I felt like actually this is something I can do. You know, I enjoy this. And then I got on the program at Glasgow University and, and, and got my, uh, postgraduate doctorate in clinical psychology. But I always knew all throughout that thing that, that what really fascinates me is how do we understand, you know, what's the models that we use, what are the different theories that we use to understand people's thinking, people's behavior, how, how they interact. And so I was always interested in that aspect of it as the, the sort of theoretical, you know, side as well as the kinda application side. And then I got this job came up in Edinburgh University back in 2004. I applied for it, got that job. It was part, part-time. The other two days a week was, uh, I got a job in the pain management service at Edinburgh. And yeah, so, so just last year I, [00:10:00] I got a, a, an award from the university for being at the university for 20 years, which was something else. Uh, and so, after I'd kind of come to, um, Edinburgh, I, I did a, I went to a, a division of health psychology, uh, event.

d be the roundabout December,: 2004

You know, just, just this sense in which, um, the psychology could be something that you, that you could, use with yourself, that you could embody yourself, that you could use that not just as something that you do at work, but it actually can be, you know, a, a philosophy, a lifestyle, that was, that was for me, fairly radical. and, and, and from then, that's then when I really started to get into act and did more ACT training and, and, and et cetera, et cetera. And then, um, around about, yeah, the, this event that, Anne's talking about, the 2014, that was the Palliative Care Congress down Harrogate. And, uh, I'd been asked to go and do that by, a guy called Mike Osborne, who was mindfulness practitioner, palliative care doctor. And he said, uh, oh, I, I, you know, I, I hear you're doing act. Can you come and do a talk? And I was like, yeah, I do act, but I don't know anything about cancer or palliative care. I said, can I bring a friend? So, so, so I contacted Ray who [00:12:00] who I, I knew not well, but knew, And he and I agreed we'd do this together. Uh, and as Anne said, it was, it was a little bit off in a sort of a room off from the main Congress and it got to the time of the beginning of the talk of the workshop and no one was there. And we, and we and Ray and I think, oh, you know, this is just gonna be us two and plus, you know, two or three people. But then, but then people started to kind of come and they were starting to say, oh, it is just the plenary overran. And, and, and, and it started to fill and fill and fill and eventually, like the room was standing, room only. It was like absolutely packed. So, so Ray and I did this talk and it went really well and, you know, enjoyed it. And then came back up to Edinburgh and Anne, who was working at the Mary Curie Hospice in Edinburgh, invited me to come there and do a talk. And, you know, the people at the hospice seemed to like it. Uh, and I had been doing ACT training, uh, across the UK at that time and noticed that. A number of people in [00:13:00] the ACT workshops I was delivering actually were saying to me that they worked in oncology and worked in palliative care. And I thought, this is good because, people in palliative care and oncology are interested in, in act, but there's actually very little in the way of evidence, whereas there's a lot of evidence in chronic pain. And, and that the work that I had been doing at the time. So I, I made a quite deliberate shift I asked for the university to provide a small amount of money and we got this kind of network impact knowledge exchange grant of only about 3000 pound. Uh, and what that did was it brought people who I had met through ACT training who I knew worked in oncology and palliative care to come to Edinburgh. And we basically did it two days in 2015. That was like skills sharing and how do you work in this space and what are the important questions in this space? Through that. We met, uh, the team, Nick Halbert Williams and Brooke Wash. We put together a small grant application to McMillan. We got money to do, uh, this, uh, beaches trial, which was about how do people adjust to palliative [00:14:00] care, uh, in the initial time. And I was the trial therapist in that, trial. So that, so that was, uh, 2016, 17 or so.

Uh, and then on the back of that, we, applied to Mary Curie. We've got this, uh, money for Restore, uh, a staff wellbeing intervention for palliative care. that was with Anne as well. Uh, and then we got this, um, money, uh, from Mary Curie again for my grief my way, which we're gonna talk about a little bit.

o it has literally grown from: 3000

Ross: Wow. Thanks for sharing that, that journey, it's so interesting to see how, it's developed in quite a short

time scale.

David: Yeah.

Ross: And that latest, I didn't know. That's phenomenal that you're supporting the, the staff who work in palliative

care. We need to, we need to look after the

David: Absolutely. Absolutely. We do.

Ross: I was just really struck, David, by your careers

David: Mm-hmm.

Ross: That feels like a really sliding doors

moment when you, when they said, huh, why don't you

just say

that? And then when you tried it out, everyone just went, alright. I

love that. I love that sort of,

David: Well, it's so radical, isn't it? It's, it's kind of slightly unthought through, but actually it really worked.

Ross: well, it kind

David: Yeah, yeah. Seems to be going okay so far.

Ross: Oh, that's superb. And once you discovered act with, um, Lance, have you found an impact in your own life of applying act to your, to yourself?

y, uh, especially after that [: 00:16:00

I was really quite narrow and, and, and found other people quite painful. Uh, and so would, would, would not, would not want to be around other people a lot. and you know, people find that a bit surprising 'cause they, they know me as the person who, goes to karaoke or will sing or is in a band or all this kind of stuff.

ou know, that's, that's that [: 00:17:00

Ross: I'm, I'm struck by your work together as a team. You, you and Anne, and something I notice in both of you, I dunno whether this is, this is right, but I, I see this desire to make a difference. Would you say that is one of your, one of your values? I can see Anne Anne's nodding. Sorry, I forgot to ask you that

question, Anne, but, um, would you see, would you see that as one of your core

values or core drivers?

David: to, to to be helpful, to be useful to, to, to make a difference in, in the world. definitely that's a, that has become a value for me. I think, you know, way, way back when I was doing my clinical training, it was always there that I wanted, I wanted my work to be something practical and, and to be of benefit, but it wasn't quite as crystallized as that kind of value statement of, you know, to be useful to make a difference.

Uh, that's definitely grown.

alue I see there, David, of, [: 00:19:00

David: It definitely has come later in life for me, that whole thing. I think, you know, my story about university, I think shows that I never had a plan, you know, really like all, all the way through. Like in fact, even getting my job at Edinburgh and, and even, you know, like, like it was all kind of opportunistic and, oh, there's an opportunity.

you know, that grant back in: 2015

And, and then, you know, you meet the right people. And for example, Nick Brooke, [00:20:00] Juliette Spiller, who's one of the consultants at the Mary Curie Hospice in Edinburgh. Each of these people who sort of like nudge it along a little bit and, and then, and then you look back on it and it looks like a very sort of planned and carefully orchestrated trajectory.

And it really hasn't been like that at all. It's been more like right. We'll do this, we'll take this opportunity that worked out well, and we'll take this opportunity. You know what, I guess what we haven't talked about is that along the way there's been a number of grant applications that have been unsuccessful, which, you know, every academic has that, you know, so,

Ross: Yeah, it's, it's important to, to be

clear about that. And I like a squiggly

trajectory. I like one that emerges and, and you're aware of what's happening, and then you can adjust the trajectory and set your sights on, on what's next. So, so David, if you were giving advice to your younger self back at school, what words of advice might you have for young David?

into my sci-fi books and, as [: 00:21:00

Ross: Nice. I like that. And it's the song choice

question, David. So a song to announce your arrival for the next two or three months. Have you got one in mind and, and why have you chosen it?

David: So it, it is funny. Uh, I love music, but I'm quite faddish and so what will happen for me, I've got core music that I love, and then what'll happen is I'll hear a song and I'll become obsessed with it and I'll play it over and over and over. And at the moment, the song that has jumped out is actually is, I think about six months old, is this song called a PT by Bruno Mars and Rose. And it's just completely pop has no specific. Profound meaning, but it absolutely, I'm totally in love with it right now. So that song would be the one for now, and then probably in a couple of weeks time it'll be something different.

Ross: I love it. I get those sort of song, song

[: 00:23:00

David: Well, the funny thing about that is I, I said to my kids who are, you know, at 16 and, 14 and nine, and, and I said, oh, I've, I've heard this amazing song on the radio. I've heard this like brilliant song. And, and you know, uh, and they were like, dad, that's been at about six months.

Ross: Oh,

dad.

Brilliant. David, thanks so much for sharing a bit, a bit more about your background and your, your journey. I'm not sure I like that word, but your journey into where you've got to

David: You are welcome.

Ross: That's it folks. My check with David in the bag Next week, I'll be talking to both Anne and David about their website, my grief my way.co.uk. You'll find the show notes from this episode at People Soup Captivate fm or wherever you get your podcasts.

If you like this [: 00:24:00

Now more than ever, you can help me reach more people with the special people, soup, ingredients, stuff that could be really useful for them. So please do share, subscribe, rate, and review. Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic and Alex Engelberg for his vocals. But most of all, dear listener, thanks to you.

Look after yourselves. Peace supers and bye for now.

one thing I haven't checked yet, which was I wanna check, I'm pronouncing your surnames correctly. I've got Gillanders.

David: Perfect.

Ross: Is that the right

emphasis? And

Finucane

Anne: That's right, Finucane. That's right.

David: For the win.