Embracing Intellectual Humility with Tom Loncar

Part 2

Ross: [: 00:00:00

Here These are behaviors that are, are socially impulsive And usually it's because people think of it as an on off button.

Right.

Tom: So if we link this to positive psychology and strengths-based coaching, there's the idea of an overused strength so often, it can get you into trouble.

And, and one way of people getting a, a fresh lens in these areas is instead of treating it like an on off button to treat it like a volume dial, so you've had something that is, you know, at 9, 8, 9 or 10. And then as a coach we'd have experiments where, you know, try going in with, you know, at level four or six and suddenly it's, it's more, I guess consciously dialed, to, to the context.

, and contributing writer on [: 00:01:00

Including the psychologist, the official magazine of the British Psychological Society. Tom's people's soup. Ingredients are curiosity, enthusiasm, and learning with a side order of building connections. Tom discusses the concept of intellectual humility, emphasizing the importance of recognizing our incomplete knowledge and welcoming the possibility of being wrong.

We explore the zombie quagmire feedback processes and the challenges leaders face, such as executive absence, miscalibrated, authenticity, and the aversion to delegation. The discussion also touches on psychological flexibility, the impact of multitasking in meetings, and creating an environment of psychological safety, particularly in cross-cultural teams.

For [: 00:02:00

Again, we love it that you're part of our community. Let's just scoot over to the news desk. I've mentioned some new offerings for 2025, and I've launched my open course bringing Act in the Workplace to the public. It's training I developed with Dr. Paul Flaman, and I've already delivered it to thousands of adults in the workplace and received tremendous feedback. It's for people who are interested in navigating their working lives more effectively. It'll help them consider what really matters and what might be getting in the way of them being the person they'd really like to be.

Such was the curiosity and the first free introductory session I held last week that I'm holding another one on Friday, the 16th of May from 1:00 PM to 2:00 PM British Standard Time on Zoom and you can get your free ticket via the link in the show notes.

Please do [: 00:03:00

and hopefully I'll see some of you for the free session on the 16th of May. So let's crack on for now. Get a brew on and have a listen to the second part of my chat with Tom Long Car.

So Tom, I'd like to dive into your

topic, and this is where we first connected on the old LinkedIn where I'd seen your article on intellectual humility. So let's first of all, try and introduce that to the listeners. So tell us a bit more about what intellectual humility is, please.

What is Intellectual Humility?

beliefs might be wrong. and, [: 00:04:00

Ross: Yeah, I'm immediately hooked as I was by your, your article, Tom, because. You and me both know, and people listening will realize that leaders can often feel that burden of kind of, I need to know

everything.

Tom: Hmm.

Ross: let's, let's go a bit deeper. And I love the, the way you describe in your article, the zombie quagmire.

Tom: Hmm.

Ross: Tell us a bit more about the zombie quagmire. 'cause that's, that's quite captivating.

um, an article that came out [: 00:05:00

Ross: Hmm.

Tom: Hmm.

gmire to how leaders can get [: 00:06:00

Receiving feedback

Tom: Yeah, well, I, I, in, in my article, I look at five, um, leadership development scenarios where, where leaders and those aspiring to be leaders might not recognize that they, they've got, sort of rigid assumptions at play. and the first of those was something we talked about before was the area of feedback, a nd particularly 360

, differently to how you see [: 00:07:00

Ross: Mm. And we mentioned before that sort of kind of quite strong reactions to,

to maybe a three word phrase that really sticks with them, but they, they almost get in a state of retaliation.

Tom: Yeah. It can be retaliation and conspiracy theorizing and be blaming others. It could be just, um, extreme disappointment, like, can't they see how hard I'm working on their behalf? And, um, any

xible responses. yeah. So it [: 00:08:00

and the, the process that, um, I introduced there was, um, um, diffusion. So,

so with, um, any beliefs, even if they're submerged about yourself, it can be like a capital T truth. And so once you see these alternative beliefs, it's, you know, expressed through other people's evaluations, it can be quite, Challenging whereas with diffusion, you can soften that capital T truth and, you know, change it to your small t truth along with these other small t truths of others. And then you just look at the data. It's, it's just data after all. And that's very similar to, you know, ideas about diffusion in terms of, you know, it's just the thought.

So this is just data and so what,

you know, what can I do about it? What's interesting

Ross: Hmm. Yeah. Getting, getting, bringing that curiosity to the fore.

Tom: [: 00:09:00

Ross: And, and what other, What other things are there in the quagmire that might derail a, a leader's intellectual humility? I.

Executive absence

Tom: Okay. There's, there's a, another scenario in there, which I've called, executive absence, and that's about, the presence. Um, one activates in, in meetings and as, as we all know, um, after covid, back to back meetings are increasingly the norm. and

so, um, you, you know, my clients find themselves, um, multitasking in meetings and everyone's doing it because that's, that's the, the norm.

Um, but, but really, um, it, [: 00:10:00

So, you know, while these sort of interpersonal, um, situations where once a forum for, you know, building executive presence, it's now a weird kind of absence and it's, it's kind of normal. Like the, the evidence, um, suggests that a lot of, um, you know, like with this profusion of meetings, a lot of once useful meetings like your daily standups that were once, you know, essential and now just, you know, things that, you know, you grin and bear it, it's in the calendar and, and you just show up without much, um, intentionality. and you might be wondering how is this related to intellectual humility? The way that I did it in the article is that it's a, I guess a, a willful. Attention away from useful data in the environment.

environment. So I'm relating [: 00:11:00

uh.

Ross: Hmm.

Tom: And, and this, this also relates to historic, wisdom like, um, the leadership guru from many years ago, Warren Bennis. there's a, a great quote that he, I've I've heard attributed to him on quite a few occasions in that the best leaders are also first class notices. So they're, they've got this, ability to,

you know, direct their presence flexibly.

So a nice, um, sort of convergence with, with psychological flexibility.

Ross: I love the way you've related this to a really naturally occurring phenomena in, in a meeting. And I've seen it in a group before. But the interesting thing is this was a group in

person

Tom: Right.

Ross: and they had their laptops open and they were taping away,

Tom: Yeah.

hang on, is everyone taking [: 00:12:00

Tom: Hmm.

Ross: and it had become the

Tom: yeah.

Ross: for that group.

Tom: Yes. And there, there seem to be short term efficiency gains, but then again, bringing it back to psychological flexibility, the, the workability over the long term, it's, it might be workable for, um. Someone in a lower level transactional role, but for, for leaders, it's setting up patterns that, um, you know, should be surfaced and questioned.

Ross: Exactly. Yeah. I'm fascinated by these. Things that could happen in the absence of intellectual humility. There was one you said about kind of stagnation through aversion to delegation, if I've got that

right.

Tom: yes, yes, yes. And you're probably thinking I'm drawing quite a long bow on this one, but, but hear me out.

Ross: Yeah.

Tom: Um,

right. So I.

a, it's a leadership academy [: 00:13:00

And so this, it mainly applies to, people who are just sort of leave leaving subject matter experts or leaving teams where they're all, you know, in, in the, in the same field to more multidisciplinary, groups of people and, and aversion to letting go. So staying. In the weeds micromanaging, and, and they all get that they should delegate more.

t get is that, you know, Tom [: 00:14:00

Tom needs to trust his people. Um, all all those kind of things. And, and, and really, um, in terms of bringing it to intellectual humility, is that at the base

contextual assumption, like [: 00:15:00

And, and, and I'm not, and these people are often, quite incredibly busy. You know, they could be on the verge of

burnout, but it's because of where and what they're, they're spending, their attention on. And meanwhile, the higher level, the, the more strategic stuff doesn't get, cultivated.

nd they were sitting next to [: 00:16:00

Tom: Right.

Ross: in the environment I was in, I, I couldn't grab them for a word for various reasons, but it was just such a, a startling example of this going back to what they'd done previously and missing out on the, what they should be doing in their leadership

role.

Tom: hmm. Yes. And it's because it's what has brought them success before, but not what's required for the next, um, level.

Ross: God, I love the way you've, you've presented these and conceptualized these, Tom, let's do the, let's do the remaining two. There was one about, you described, I think as miscalibrated

authenticity.

Tom: Yes. Yes.

Ross: Tell us about

that.

mething that might have been [: 00:17:00

Ross: Yeah, many, many examples of, and it's the kind of person to me, without sharing an example, but when the people say, well, it's just who I

am. Yeah.

Or if a group of people are talking about another leader, they just go, oh, that's just the way Ross is. We're never gonna change him. Now, is it, is it that sort of

thing?

Tom: It, it can be. And there's definitely overlaps with

that. and it touches on values too, because if they come back with, but that's me being authentic. That's what my values, um, suggest I should be doing here. now, in terms of what leadership thought leaders bring in here

is the idea of

t you've done and has served [: 00:18:00

So the 360 feedback might be, I don't need to hear about, what they did on the weekend in my, you know, weekly, um, uh, one-on-ones with them, or I don't need to

ple need from me here? While [: 00:19:00

And he

talks about, our core values as being the, continents on this globe. And so every situation will put a different light on those core values. So An easier sort of, um, example to give there. Like if you have a value of, care and, nurture how you might, um, express that to a child would be different to how you would express it to a, a team in a, in a, you know, in a change process. And so, you know,

you, you'd, attune it to the audience's needs, you know?

e in the article. Like this, [: 00:20:00

that you want to lead that look up to you, you know, without this, Friction. And, and so, you know, this is, this

is a tricky one because, um, I'm not talking about, deeper conceptualizations of authenticity and bringing the true self to work.

I'm not talking about this is, These are behaviors that are, are socially impulsive And usually it's because people think of it as an on off button.

Ross: Right.

Tom: So if we link this to positive psychology and strengths-based coaching, there's the idea of an overused strength so often, it can get you into trouble.

nd suddenly it's, it's more, [: 00:21:00

Ross: I love the idea of that volume

Tom: yes.

Ross: dial.

Tom: yes. No, I had a, I had a, a leader I was working with in financial services who came from Europe and financial services cultures here in, Australia, I suspect are a bit more, um, serious and somber than what he was used to. And the ongoing feedback was to, to tone down. And it was a strength that this person described as their authentic vivaciousness.

I think it was the word. I think it was vivacious, and it was, you know, felt as hugely compromising. But then in a coaching session, we, we conceptualized it as a dial you know, what you could do with that dial in future, um, you know, situations.

that they refused to accept. [: 00:22:00

Ross: So they, they went away and experimented with dialing

it down.

Tom: Yeah. Like I, I, that was, that was the, um, the,

the, um, action following a session, this regular meeting. What would a level four feel like?

So it was, it, it moved from the, you know, an on off switch to something more that they felt that they

could, um, drive themselves.

Undermining of psychological safety

Ross: And I guess it's related to that authenticity. There's another one you identify about undermining of psychological safety in cross-cultural teams.

Tom: yes, yes. yes, yes. Now that, that also is linked to values and also perspective, taking. So,

hat at the start of meetings [: 00:23:00

Ross: Tom, thank you so much for bringing this to life. about what can happen in the absence of intellectual humility. It, it covers so much of a leadership role. And I think I also love the way you've related it [00:24:00] to. Psychological flexibility and acceptance and commitment therapy.

So I'd really recommend that people check out this article from Tom.

Tom: what I like to do is, is make bridging moves. between, you know, I'll notice something and I think, oh, that's like, you know, diffusion in acts. So like, you know, Ethan Cross, from Michigan, he's written that book Chatter, which is all about helpful versus unhelpful inner voices.

And it's like, it's all like, it's all like act, but it's not from an act domain, Deborah Grunfeld and those social psychologists from Stanford, like, I see them as, Keys to helping, me understand, you know, perspective taking and self as context.

Um, and, and so like, I'm, I'm always making bridging moves in my mind.

Like I go, I go running three times a week, and that's where I listen to podcasts, like your podcast and, and whatever captures my mind. and that's where I get ideas

Ross: And it feels like

it's part of your creativity to make those connections.

Tom: yes,

ou're really exercising that [: 00:25:00

Tom: yes.

Ross: and, and for leaders. I wonder if I could ask, what motivates you in your work with leaders, Tom?

Tom: Okay, well, well, there's a couple of things. Well, I like to, encourage different ways of thinking and that's, that's something that, you know, we used to do in consulting. You know, we were the experts hired to go and do a project and then come back and, you know, get people to, to see things differently.

Um, coaching is a bit different 'cause working individually, but in working with individuals, I see a lot of the same issues I myself faced between the ages of around 30 to 45 in organizational settings. So it's a, you know, and coaching wasn't a thing back as an option

like, um, helping from that [: 00:26:00

Ross: And, and what gives you, what gives you a buzz in a, in a coaching session? What do you get out of a coaching session? Are there kind of, high points?

Tom: Yep. Yep. So, you know, there, there's, there's the aha moments within sessions, which a lot of coaches can relate to, I'm sure. But, but also the between session learning, like when they, when they, um, construct the experiment to be had between sessions and what to look out for. And then coming back with, you know,

a level of, um, exuberance and learning, in, in the following session. Like, it's, it's very rewarding and it's often not expected, And there's, you know, and, and one of the, you know, big, themes, uh, I, I see in coaching, um, these days is about effective. Boundary setting and, you know, being able

hose experiments, are quite, [: 00:27:00

and, and this relates to intellectual humility as well in terms of how they see what they can and can't do. The rules about, you know, there might be beliefs around hierarchy and what you know, and assumptions around what they can and can't say no to.

And then, and then testing those assumptions and just showing up intentionally different in, in those moments it's great to see.

Ross: Yeah. And you mentioned those rules. Is that, is that, uh, is that a trend you're seeing in, in your leadership work?

Tom: you know, this whole idea of how to say no in a way that's not selfish, but in a, in a way that works for, for all concerned.

And, um, there's actually a, an interesting example that I can sometimes, um, refer to that, that a lot of clients find insightful. are you familiar with the work of Adam Grant?

Yes.

Yes. So one of his, um, lesser referred to books from years ago, but um, I, I still refer to it, is one called Give and Take.

[: 00:28:00

reasons. And then there are matches. And matches are folk who they might start off as givers, they contribute, but then if they don't notice, reciprocity over time, they then withdraw, um, their, sort of voluntariness in there. And then, um, Adam Grant

asked the question, so, which, which of those groups? So he looks at sort of career outcomes across those groups. Guess which group of those three and tends to end up at the, the top of their career ladders?

Ross: [: 00:29:00

Tom: Yes. Yes. A lot of people would suggest that, but no, it's the givers. And guess which group ends up at the bottom of their career ladders.

give a trick question. It's also the givers. So, and the

distinction is, and this is actually worth, um, looking up. There's, I think there's a couple of pieces on YouTube where he explains it

some categories of givers like those, who end up at the bottom of their career ladders. They have what Adam Grant describes as the doormat effect. So they, they give, but you know, they might have started off their careers with their own to-do lists, but they're compliant in fulfilling other people's requests. Givers

at the top of their career ladders have figured that out, you know, have built up social credit because, you know, they, they have contributed so much, but they also have boundaries.

know, And, and, and that can [: 00:30:00

Ross: fascinating. Again, you're, you're bridging the, the space between other research and models and thoughts and, and psychological flexibility. I love it.

Tom: Thanks, Ross.

Ross: now, Tom, I wanted to mention your meditation channel that's informed by psychological flexibility. I, I've been having a little bit of a listen. I listened to one this morning

enjoying it, Tom. So tell us [: 00:31:00

Tom: thanks Ross for trying it out. So, um, it's something I've often wanted to do. have you, um, heard of mindfulness based stress reduction, the um,

ining. It would've been about: 2014

And, you know, it's quite a deep, quite a deep engagement at the beginning. Like a lot of those meditations are 20, 40 minutes. But in, in the years that have followed, I've found a lot of good five to 10 to, you know, 15 minutes max meditations that, you know, I've got a, a rotating repertoire and, you know, I go beyond and, and sort of some things have really stuck with me. and I've heard, some. Great meditations from people in the ACT community, um, So five meditations in there, sofa, which, um, the library will, expand. [00:32:00] one of them is, uh, directly inspired by one of, um, Dr. Steven Hayes's meditations, the, the Sculpture Garden. Uh, another one in there is, um, directly, um, based on one of John Cabot zinn's, um, meditations, the mountain meditation, which, which is very useful in, um, sort of interpersonal judgment settings. I think,

and there's one on values and a couple more, but yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll gradually hopefully have something that, covers each of the, um, act processes, in the weeks months ahead.

Ross: Wonderful, and as I said in episode one, that's on YouTube Insight Timer and SoundCloud. So I'll make sure those links are in the show notes.

Tom: Excellent. Yes. Yes. Or with the Grow gravitas handle.

Ross: Now Tom, I've heard on the grapevine that there might be a book in the offering. You're writing a book. Is that, is that right?

tend to overcook my writing. [: 00:33:00

the psychologist, um, last August. So my book chapters will be less dense than that article. So,

Ross: Well, I can't wait for the book, and I'm hoping whenever that lands, you might consider coming back on the show.

Tom: absolutely. Thank you, Ross. Yes.

Ross: Now, Tom, before, before I say goodbye, I wonder if there's a brief takeaway that listeners might find useful relating to any aspect of the adult experience in the workplace?

Tom: I think it's really catch the judginess, the, the judginess about

[: 00:34:00

Ross: It sounds great. I think if we can pause and just check ourselves, like, think again, then I think that's, that's really useful to notice that. I love the way you say, I notice the judgment of others, of, of ourselves, and of situations invaluable, I think for leaders.

Tom, thank you so much for joining me on People Soup. I've loved this conversation and. leaving this, reflecting on your, your creativity in your leadership and coaching work. thank you so much for all that you do.

Tom: thank you Ross, for those kind words and, and thank you for this, um, invitation to be on people's soup. It's been great.

Ross: [: 00:35:00

If you like this episode, I'd love it if you told us why. You can email at people soup dot po@gmail.com. On the socials. I'm still posting on Instagram at People Soup And I'm on LinkedIn as well as a new account on Blue Sky. just search for my name.

Now more than ever. You can help me reach more people with the special people, soup, ingredients, stuff that could be really useful for them. So please do share, subscribe, rate, and review. Thanks to Andy Glen for his spoon Magic and Alex Engelberg for his vocals.

But most of all, dear listener, thanks to you, look after yourselves. Peace supers and bye for now.

Tom: and so like, I'm, I'm always making bridging moves in my mind.

isten to podcasts, like your [: 00:36:00