Coaching Through Burnout with Hazel Anderson-Turner
Hi there and a very warm welcome to Season 6 Episode 17 of People Soup, it's Ross McIntosh here.
P-Soupers - In this episode I continue my conversation with Hazel Anderson-Tuner. Hazel is a business psychologist and mindset coach specialising in resilience and leadership. She's also a podcast cohost at Coaching unpACT and author of the book, Coaching through Burnout and that's where we focus our conversation.
Hazel's People Soup ingredients are flexibility, values led action, being of service with a healthy sprinkling of humour. First up you'll hear my review of Coaching Through Burnout - A burnout prevention toolkit for busy leaders and their teams. We then explore the modern workplace's mental health crisis, particularly burnout, and Hazel shares the definition and its three components. Hazel also shares her personal experience with burnout and how it inspired her to create a course for the NHS, which was highly successful but ran out of funding, leading to the origin story of the book. Hazel also talks about her writing process, the challenges and joys of writing her first book, and her values of service, openness, vulnerability, and creativity. The interview concludes with Hazel emphasizing the importance of hope and fresh starts for those struggling with burnout or any life challenge.
For those of you who are new to People Soup - welcome - it's great to have you here - I aim to provide you with ingredients for a better work life from behavioural science and beyond. For those of you who are regular P Soupers - thanks for tuning in - we love it that you're part of our community.
There is a transcript for each episode. There is a caveat - this transcript is largely generated by Artificial Intelligence, I have corrected many errors but I won't have captured them all! You can also find the shownotes by clicking on notes then keep scrolling for all the useful links.
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Transcript
Hazel Part 2
[:[00:00:06] Hazel: I think by then, because I'd, I'd been doing so much coaching and using ACT Within It, I think when I reflected on my coachees, actually a lot of the work that I was doing, you know, you could badge it as resilience or you could badge it as, as burnout prevention, but I had had several clients say to me, I would have left if I hadn't had this coaching.
[:[00:00:44] Ross: Pea Soupers, in this episode I continue my conversation with Hazel Anderson Turner. Hazel is a business psychologist and mindset coach specializing in resilience and leadership.
[:[00:01:17] We then explore the modern workplace´s mental health crisis, particularly burnout, and Hazel shares the definition and its three components. Hazel also shares her personal experience with burnout and how it inspired her to create a course for the NHS, Which was highly successful, but ran out of funding, leading to the origin story of this book. Hazel also talks about her writing process, the challenges and joys of writing her first book, and her values of service, openness, vulnerability, and creativity.
[:[00:02:10] For those of you who are new to PeopleSoup, welcome! It's great to have you here. We aim to provide you with the ingredients for a better work life, from behavioral science and beyond. For those of you who are regular PeeSupers, thanks for tuning in again. We love it that you're part of our community.
[:[00:02:33] Russell Baker messaged me on LinkedIn all the way from Australia said it was so wonderful to have an example of positive masculinity, which is often missing in today's society. So Russell, thanks so much for listening. Really appreciate your feedback. And PCPers, we'd love to get your feedback on episodes, so please do share.
[:[00:03:09] Hazel, I'd like to dive into exploring your book more, and that book is called Coaching Through Burnout. And I'd like to start with my review Now this is unusual because you've already seen my review, and it actually forms part of the cover of the book, of which I am very grateful and proud.
[:[00:03:53] Hazel brings her unique voice, humanity, experience, and deep expertise to this book. The stories [00:04:00] she shares are relatable and powerful, and will help leaders tackle what can be uncomfortable conversations in an effective and impactful way. Bravo. And I had the good fortune to read Hazel's book before it was published, so thank you for that opportunity, and thank you for writing it.
[:[00:04:20] you.
[:[00:04:32] Hazel: So, I like Christina Malish and her team's kind of definition of it being about three things. You know, it's this combination of exhaustion, cynicism, detachment, and feeling ineffective. So we've got this combination of, I've been giving and giving and giving and I just don't have anything else to live, live?
[:[00:05:17] Ross: So those three elements are what forms burnout, we know, and do you, do you have the experience that it's almost becoming overused as a word? Yeah, yeah.
[:[00:05:49] I think there's a lot of it. So it's difficult to say, isn't it? That, is it being, is it being overused? I think it's that piece around the difference [00:06:00] between our normal stress that we experience, and when it becomes chronic. So it is that, it's a bit like, I think there are lots of things, isn't it, where people are saying, please don't say a little bit of, you know, I'm a little bit burnt out.
[:[00:06:26] Ross: Hmm, and When did you first discover burnout as a concept? Hmm,
[:[00:06:55] I think also, and I don't know if you find this in our line of work, often when I'm asked to work with an organization around a well being topic, they like to give it a positive spin. So I think that's why we talk about resilience a lot. And I even, you know, some of my early titles for sessions would be things like Resilience for Results, to try and make that connection between well being and, profit, or performance.
[:[00:08:00] And like I say, there's a fear that if people are awake to the symptoms that they will suddenly go, oh gosh. I'm burnt out. I'm gonna, I'm gonna go off sick or I'm gonna leave.
[:[00:08:28] Because they're sick of it. Because it's been, it's maybe been promoted before and the interpretation of that promotion of the word resilience has been, oh, instead of doing your own job and Going the extra mile. You can do the jobs of two people and go the extra mile and that's what we're trying to cultivate in you we're trying to get blood out of a stone.
[:[00:09:22] it presses some buttons for people.
[:[00:09:25] Ross: I'm also curious 'cause it's kind of a bit of a light bulb moment for me when you said you didn't call courses wellbeing previously and you made me think, gosh, I probably didn't pre pandemic. Because it became quite a difficult sell, or difficult to attract participants, because they saw it as Ross's pink and fluffy tree hugging brigade.
[:[00:10:01] Hazel: using it much at all. again, you know, I'm a psychologist. I want to be taken seriously, and I'm using an evidence based approach. So, whereas now, I think, yeah, I think there's a much more open door. And I think, actually, that probably matches funding. So, in the NHS, you know, funding was made available specifically for well being.
[:[00:10:44] I think I think there's just much more awareness of it and much more awareness that there is Absolutely a link between well being and performance, we can't deny that, you know, that it absolutely is there, whether, whether we take the necessary next steps or not, it's something that, that pays to put, give some attention to.
[:[00:11:18] ACT for Burnout
[:[00:11:44] there's no way that I would have stayed in this role. so I started to see that there was definitely something in the techniques could support someone when they were on that. On that road to burnout. and then when I was putting [00:12:00] together the training around burnout, again, you know, what was I thinking?
[:[00:12:24] Or, we are struggling to access joy and, you know, the positive emotions. So I think. It was, we were talking earlier about, before we came on weren't we, about puzzles. But it was a, it was a puzzle piece fit
[:[00:12:41] Origin Story
[:[00:12:59] Hazel: So, so I love books. So my dream is just being left on a beach somewhere with just loads of books. So I'm, I'm already kind of addicted to the, to the medium. And so I'd always, always had it in the back of my mind that I'd love to write a book. and I, I had been running this Coaching Through Burnout course, and I had received such amazing feedback, so that the best feedback I'd ever received on a course about the effectiveness and how helpful it had been, to people working in the NHS and just how they enabled them to walk away from the course on that day and make some changes that made life better for them.
[:[00:14:02] training and some stuff around burnout, prevention and, and puts them together. And they'd trusted me enough, to run a pilot of two sessions and we were absolutely overwhelmed. I think we must have had nearly 200 people, apply for 30 places. and then the, uh, wellbeing lead, Dan, he. He scrabbled down the back of the sofas and found, found money to, to put on more courses.
[:[00:14:30] Hazel: So I ended up training over 150, staff and I was just, you know, when you have an offering that just feels like it's It's, it's you, it's you shaped and, and every time I delivered it, I just, yeah, I just felt like this is what I'm supposed to be doing. And after 18 months, the money ran out, you know, the wellbeing pot that had been filled up during COVID had run out and there was no more money.
[:[00:15:19] And I think old Hazel, the Hazel who loves business, would have just let it go and would have just gone on to the next thing, because I quite like new things. I quite, because the creative side of me would have been, okay, what's the next thing? So burnouts, that's done. There's no more money in the NHS.
[:[00:15:57] You;ve got a choice
[:[00:16:00] You've got a choice about what you do. You can either put that to bed and it, you know, that, that was it. You help those people and that's done. or you can do something about it. And so, I decided that I would take that course and also take the, pieces from my coaching, my act informed coaching, that Just had been so powerful and I, I used in different types of, of training that I offer and put them into one place and to keep that learning going in some way.
[:[00:17:00] It had that feel that we spoke about. before about this is a human to human exchange of something that could be useful.
[:[00:17:09] Ross: And yeah, P Supers, absolutely. As I've said, the book is practical and authentic. And it's like a conversation with Hazel. And the stories you share from your own life and from others are just so powerful and relatable. Was this always going to be the style you were going to write in?
[:[00:17:53] You know, I didn't go into it having trained as a writer so I, I like to write an ebook, anyone that's been on my website [00:18:00] knows I love an ebook. My, my web person keeps telling me I have to stop writing ebooks to give them away all of my content. so I like writing. on social media and that and that kind of way.
[:[00:18:31] it was a new, a new skill.
[:[00:18:46] Hazel: I think I had in mind that I wanted the three sections. So, the bit about my story and a background to burnout, and then the practical skills coaching skills bit, and then the Act bit at the end. I think it, it was, it was just tweaking coming back to it. So I had a spreadsheet with the chapter titles and then, I love a spreadsheet and then like how much progress and how much words I'd written in each of the chapters and I think the way it worked for me, so I'm not a naturally kind of sequential, uh, one thing after another person, which infuriates my partner.
[:[00:19:55] So it, it definitely got tweaked. I didn't have a [00:20:00] clear plan, and I quite like that. I know that won't work for everyone, but I quite like the fact that I,
[:[00:20:07] Hazel: I remember someone saying to me very early on, Like, writing isn't fun. Like, even professional writers hate writing. And I really pushed against this.
[:[00:20:47] but I had to. I had to release myself from that and I found that, I mean, I really, if I wanted to write something that was any good, it really was only a couple of hours a day, the creative process is, is just different to other processes.
[:[00:21:10] Hazel: What were my values? I mean, obviously the service piece.
[:[00:21:15] Hazel: Around, um, Again, I think that generosity of giving away the stuff that I think works. and again, I think, you know, we've spoken about it a lot, but that openness and that willingness the courage to be vulnerable I think through my stories And also, I think by not taking that expert stance in a way, by, by being really clear that I don't have it all figured out, again, that felt really important.
[:[00:22:28] Um, that maybe it's okay.
[:[00:22:30] Ross: I think it's a real testament, the whole book, to letting your values be your guide, because they really shine through. And were there moments when you were thinking, goodness me, what have I done?
[:[00:23:04] It'll all be fine. And then, and this has only been recently, it hit me. Oh my gosh, what if people actually do buy it, and read it? Not only, have I opened myself up to judgement about, you know, my skills and the things that I teach, but I've shared stories about myself, and as a coach, you know, I spend a lot of time, even though, you know, with an act, we are doing normalising, but we're not, we're not laying it bare, are we?
[:[00:24:03] the first time they might experience me Could be through the book, and that was suddenly like, ooh, a little bit scary.
[:[00:24:19] Hazel: I'm sure there's lots of things. I think, I mean, I learned that I like to write
[:[00:24:42] and it's, uh, it's really fascinating. So I talked to some marketing and PR people as part of the process of the book coming out and they were saying, okay, so, so what's the offer that you want to sell because you wrote the book? Cause it's, you know, cause it's a marketing thing.
[:[00:25:04] Ross: Yeah.
[:[00:25:27] So. Again, it's, it's that I love the medium of books, and, and I feel like they are a way to support people and in places where they might not have access to work with us, either one to one or, you know, in a group setting. I think they are, they are a really valuable resource.
[:[00:25:53] Aren't they? books.
[:[00:26:06] Hazel: and it really threw me, because I know that for some people that is, That is a way that, that you can, you know, really, call out to your target person to say that this is the stuff about, about, you know, this topic. And this is to show that I know what I'm talking about.
[:[00:26:35] Storytelling
[:[00:27:05] and overhearing the woman describing how, her unconscious, mind had led her into, one of her neighbors, the back of their car rather than a taxi, that morning. And, and, and I dunno, I think it's opened up a new, a new area of my life. So I always thought that creativity for me was my painting.
[:[00:28:01] So that kind of opened the door to go. Yes, it makes it easy for my mind to accept.
[:[00:28:14] Hazel: it's been so lovely. It was actually, the launch was really emotional. there were a lot of NHS emergency service, clients there. And it was just a lovely moment to go, Oh, you know, yay, yay us. and, I felt. That, you know, when people properly see you, like, like we were saying earlier about creating spaces, so much of our work is about creating containers for other people to think well and to, uh, find ways to help themselves.
[:[00:28:51] which was really, really lovely. And then, you know, people are reading the book and I'm getting these messages saying, Hazel, it does sound like you. It's like, I've got, I've got 10 minutes with you every day. and I had a friend who I haven't seen.
[:[00:29:22] Ross: yeah, your work here is done. And I love the way that people can apply the learning to an everyday event, but then, then they've got a chance of installing that in, in other aspects of their lives as well. From the, from the triumph of the hairdressers can, there can be an opportunity to then repeat those perspectives or skills in other areas of life.
[:[00:29:44] Ross: I have to ask, you said, and I'd like to pretend to my listeners, P. Supers, you heard it here first, Hazel's writing another book. Are you allowed to tell us anything about it yet, or is it still at the, under wraps phase? I [00:30:00] completely respect if it is. Hmm,
[:[00:30:29] So, I mean, this whole, you know, two sides of a coin. So on one side having all of, you know, the great things that values bring and then on the other side, that the pain and discomfort that comes from holding those values, like, wow. what does that mean? So what does it mean to. to live with the discomfort of adventure.
[:[00:31:43] So that's where I'm going next. Yeah.
[:[00:31:58] Hazel: Hmm. [00:32:00] So I was asked about One Takeaway at the, at the launch, and I shared something that I think really resonated with people, so for, for those people who have seen the book cover, and if you haven't, then you need to because it's beautiful, um, so it's a sunrise, and my daughter actually did the first edition, design of this, uh, before it got sent to the, the book designer.
[:[00:33:16] Ross: Hmm.
[:[00:33:40] Ross: Wow. Thank you, Hazel. Thanks for your, your generosity today, your openness and for being such an inspiration. So I'm delighted you've joined us. Thank you for everything and look forward to having you on again. in the future for the next book.
[:[00:34:01] Ross: That's it folks, part two of my chat with Hazel in the bag.
[:[00:34:09] You'll find the show notes for this episode at peoplesoup. captivate. fm or wherever you get your podcasts. If you like this episode, I'd love it if you told me why. You can email at peoplesoup. pod at gmail. com. Now on the socials, Peasoopers, there are some changes to my profiles. I've stopped posting on Twitter because I no longer value the place it has become. I've also retired my Facebook page as my confidence in the platform has diminished greatly.
[:[00:34:45] Stuff that could be really useful for them. So please do share, subscribe, rate and review. Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic and Alex Engelberg for his vocals. But most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves, Pea Soupers, and bye for now.
[:[00:35:05] Hazel: Oh, well, thank you. Yeah, I decided to come in and be full Hazel, so.
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