Bringing lightness to heavy topics with Hazel Anderson Turner

Hazel Part one

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[00:00:07] Hazel: When you discover something that can help people to be human, and to just navigate the challenges of being human, it isn't right, is it, that you keep that to yourself and that you, that you guard it. I think that, every act practitioner that I have, have met has been, yeah, so generous and so, so much part of this movement to share, those techniques with other people.

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[00:00:37] Hazel is a business psychologist and mindset coach specializing in resilience and leadership. she's also a podcast co host at Coaching Unpacked, and author of the book, Coaching Through Burnout.

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[00:01:22] For those of you who are new to PeopleSoup, welcome. It's great to have you here. We aim to provide you with the ingredients for a better work life, from behavioral science and beyond. For those of you who are regular Peasoopers, thanks for tuning in again. We love it that you're part of our community. A quick scoot over to the news desk.

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[00:01:55] Paul Flaxman To people who are interested in navigating their [00:02:00] working lives more effectively, considering what matters and what might be getting in the way in terms of being the person they'd really like to be. More news on that soon. Finally, would anyone like a PeopleSoup bookmark? My dad, Big G, is poised to send your bookmark anywhere in the world.

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[00:02:33] Hazel: Oh, thank you so much for having me.

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[00:02:57] So it says here. Hazel Anderson Turner is a business psychologist and a mindset coach resilience and leadership. Hazel has over 15 years of experience in organizational development and has worked with a range of service providers and large corporations, including Hampshire Fire and Rescue Service and Facebook.

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[00:03:28] Hazel: Yeah, that's not bad.

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[00:03:42] You like a bit of learning.

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[00:03:45] Ross: And just to reinforce that liking a bit of learning, hazel also holds certificates in business and personal coaching, ACT, appreciative inquiry, action learning sets, and is a qualified mindfulness teacher, as well as having a qualification as a personal trainer [00:04:00] and fitness instructor. Blimey, I'm just exhausted reading those. Tell me about the personal trainer and fitness instructor bit, Hazel.

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[00:04:42] and. Then I have my daughter. And it all kind of went out the window. Uh, but yeah, I still love, I still love exercise and being outside and yeah.

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[00:05:04] Hazel: Oh yeah, that was hideous. Absolutely. Honestly, I mean anyone that knows Brighton Um, that, yeah, the risk of getting, you know, the wind on that day, isn't it? And it was late February, and I had obviously gone off too quickly, and then I hit that last 5k where you turn in Hove, and just got hit by this wall of, of wind and rain.

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[00:05:36] Ross: Awww.

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[00:05:56] Rather than a race. [00:06:00] Mmm.

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[00:06:22] I'm really improving as a cyclist. And then I would turn around to come home, and it would be the wind. And I just used to grimace and keep repeating this mantra of, The wind is your friend. It's developing you.

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[00:06:39] Ross: No. No. I still was in great pain and anguish, but I usually made it home. There's more, Hazel. To top it all, Hazel is an author, and we'll be discussing her book a bit later.

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[00:07:15] Hazel: He's a cockapoo. Yeah.

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[00:07:22] Hazel: the breeder that we bought him for, from, is called, I think called Cock a doodle doo. But yeah.

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[00:07:56] And also, what I would personally love to see, is you know when they're [00:08:00] showing the dogs and the judges go, take your dog for a run round the circle. I can just picture you, I think you have the style capabilities to carry this off, where you're gently trotting round with Luca. Looking fabulous. And that's just something I would love to see.

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[00:08:39] Ross: Or maybe, if not crafts, maybe Britain's got talent.

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[00:08:46] Ross: But how is, how is Luca? And,

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[00:09:25] Um, but it's, yeah, they're a lot of work.

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[00:09:29] Hazel: Yeah.

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[00:09:46] I'm thinking maybe if you could give us like maybe a couple of pivotal moments in your career to date where you've really paused to think where you're going to go next. [00:10:00] Absolutely.

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[00:10:24] Um, and after that, I went to. clinical research, you know, the logical step. Uh, and while I was there, and I was studying psychology on the side, and I had this moment where I was, I was in clinical research because I wanted to make a difference. The company that I worked for was very, finance focused.

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[00:11:11] I was told, no, um, we don't like forcing charity on our employees. And you know, you have those moments going, I don't know if my values are really aligned with this organization or maybe this line of work. And, um, yeah, so that in that moment I, I suddenly thought. I need to go and do something else.

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[00:11:55] I'd, I'd had the whole driving to work and I worked in clinical research, you know, sitting [00:12:00] in the car park, crying, you know, you know, when you just feel like you're not in the right place, but you don't know where to go. And, you know, my instinct was to try, To be a youth worker, that, that didn't work out.

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[00:12:30] Ross: hmm. I love to hear this sort of moment, thank you for sharing it, when you were in the clinical research organization and they declined your wish to, to raise some money. sort of, was that kind of the, the straw that

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[00:13:07] It was so apparent to me that this wasn't where I was supposed to be. And I was in my twenties, I didn't have a mortgage, I didn't have children. So, so, you know, I could, take that kind of step.

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[00:13:17] Hazel: But yes, I think it, there was obviously other things going on, but it was so clear to me. And that doesn't happen, I don't think, often.

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[00:13:38] Ross: And I sense a curiosity there as well. Would that be fair to say? You, you then went on to try youth work. Well, first of all, you started in, in the Merchant Navy. Can I ask, can I ask what, what, what led you to that career?

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[00:14:15] Again, it was in the, in the training department. So there was something going on there, you know, where I was like, Ooh, I'm interested in, in learning generally. but I got to work, yeah, with cadets and, um, yeah. And I got to go to Spain to go and see the, to see our fleet of ships. So yeah, it was,

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[00:14:46] Hazel: is the one that you, your research team, um, mentioned earlier. Which was what happened. During COVID for me. So I had, I've been running my business probably for three years and most of the work that I was doing was, associate work in leadership development. So I was, I was known for, someone that was really good with just dysfunctional teams.

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[00:15:43] Uh, and. So I did, and then sat there in my cupboard, and just did coaching session, coaching session, coaching session, um, one after another. And, I mean, you know what, what kind of time, it was a difficult [00:16:00] time, and it was, it was difficult, I think, it taught me a lot. I think about emotional discomfort and I'm sure we'll come on to that later, but holding that guilt because I did feel really guilty because I was there safe in a room, you know, away from, the most challenging places, but trying to support using my skills, as best I could.

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[00:17:25] So obviously this whole resilience thing was like, Hmm, we're, we're still not feeling very resilient. Everyone's exhausted. We're all, you know, burnout is now the thing. And, and that's what then led me to get. Into that world of burnout and to think, Hey, you know, there is, there is a place for coaching here.

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[00:18:02] Ross: thank you. And I really see your value shine through that, this value, particularly this value for me, I'm seeing that of being of service for that extraordinary time, Just take a step back. You were talking a bit earlier about being, being known for your work with dysfunctional teams. How did you find that? I'm curious.

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[00:18:49] And so I think the reason why I was someone that became a bit known for that was because I was quite fearless around it in the sense I think a lot of facilitators are quite scared by, you know, if there's a strong leader who is having a big influence on the team, or you've got clashes in personality within the team, whereas for me, I, yeah, I find it so interesting and I think finding ways to find common ground and to support people to communicate.

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[00:19:44] And I always found it fascinating that we were teaching compassion to. People who were caring for people with dementia. And I was like, this is, how, how is this, how has this happened? Because I swear [00:20:00] that you would, you wouldn't go into that industry. You don't go into it for the money, do you? You go into that industry because you care about people and because you're compassionate.

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[00:20:39] People don't go into teams to be intentionally destructive

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[00:21:15] Ross: Mmm. I love the way you describe it as a disconnect. They can become a disconnect once adults start working together as a, in a team. They can become disconnected from their own. kind of humanity.

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[00:21:49] When people are in situations where they don't feel safe

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[00:22:07] So we, and I guess that's where the dysfunctional comes from, isn't it? We're into function, but we're into that place where it's, it's, this has worked for me before, and this is an instinctive way of me trying to keep myself safe. And, but how that plays out in teams is then, you know, that's making someone else feel unsafe and then they're doing their particular, um, brand of, of dysfunction.

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[00:22:38] Ross: Me too. I absolutely agree. And it really, the way you articulate it really resonates with me and my experience of many teams of adults. And

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[00:23:11] Hazel: And it's, it's the safety bit as well, isn't it? So I think, you know, and you'll know this as someone that, you know, works a lot with teams. As you're developing your skill, It's like you have a sixth sense, don't you? Or you can kind of smell the fear and you, you make a decision about how safe that space is and where you're able to go and whether you want to, open up the box or, or call out the elephant in the room and, and you have to be brave enough to be prepared to be challenged.

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[00:24:09] but you also have to be prepared to, I don't know, let, let the commissioner down in a way, and say that That wasn't right for now.

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[00:24:34] Hazel: and that big question, isn't it? That as coaches we hold all the time, you know, who is this in service of? So if I ask this question or if I pose this to the group, who is it in service? Is it in service to this team? Is it going to get them to the place that they need to go to? Um, and I think. I think that's why sometimes it frustrates me when people look at, you know, those of us that work in training or facilitation and it's kind of, Oh, anybody can do that.

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[00:25:10] Ross: goodness me, yes, it's, it's, people, people say it quite flippantly, don't they? Like, reading the room. I think we develop skills, which are still under development, to, to read the room. And notice those. Looks or those sort of micro behaviors

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[00:25:32] And just double checking who is this? Who is this in the service of?

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[00:26:04] We're coming back into spaces together, Which is really important. And when we're talking so much, isn't it, in group work is about developing trust, whatever I'm doing with that group, I've got in my mind that by the end of our time together, this group will have improved in trust in some way.

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[00:26:26] Ross: Yeah. Yeah. I hear you. And you talked about your, your interest in act and, and how you're part of the, the Joe Oliver contextual consulting stable as we both are. And I love it that we're both there offering workplace focused, approaches to act. I think it's, I think it's a lovely branch of his offering.

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[00:27:01] Hazel: So. It was at a BPS Occupational Psychology Conference, so it must have been about a year after my daughter was born. I was escaping for the first time for Weekend Aware, I was very excited. And it was in Brighton again, there was, I just keep coming back to Brighton. And um, I went to the bookshop, so I was supposed to be in a lecture, but I, I was just lured in by the, the psychology bookshop.

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[00:27:27] very familiar to you.

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[00:27:37] Hazel: Yeah, and I think, because obviously there's no big kind of act on the top of the front of it, is there? It's very, you know, this is, this was about mindfulness in my mind. So I was like, oh, this is interesting and Took it home. It probably sat there for for a few months as these books do and then yeah and one day I picked it up and I started reading it and [00:28:00] I had Struggled with post natal depression myself and I'd, I'd had, counseling and I had, a mindfulness teacher who, I'd gone to see once a week and she'd been really helpful.

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[00:28:41] I think when I first went, it was just, I'm really interested in this and, Really interested for myself and I think I was doing some resilience training. So I started to integrate it into, into the training that I was delivering. And I just, I just got hooked. And I think this happens to a lot of people, doesn't it?

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[00:29:07] Ross: like a frequent flyer.

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[00:29:09] Hazel: Yeah. and I feel like, I know other people have said about being evangelical about ACT, but it really did feel Like it provided a framework, for a lot of things that made sense to me.

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[00:29:41] and then adding in this whole piece around thoughts, which was quite a new piece for me. And yeah, it, it, it just made sense.

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[00:30:01] Hazel: Yeah. So at that time, I think I was, I just started as a guest lecturer in work psychology at Winchester University. And I said, I have to teach this to students because, Oh my gosh. I mean, I'd had a critical mind. I mean, it's still, it still has its moments, but I remember as a student. That was when it felt like life got particularly hard for me, and my mind was particularly horrible to me, and it drove me to get those qualifications that you spoke about, but it was not a fun time, and so it I started delivering ACT sessions to psychology students, and it's fascinating, isn't it?

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[00:31:08] Helping people to be human

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[00:31:34] Ross: Oh, that's, that's lovely. It's a joy to hear you talk about that and the way you, the way you hold it and pass it on. Love it. Now, thinking back to Hazel at school and thinking from the position you are now, is there any advice you'd offer young Hazel in her school days?

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[00:32:05] Um,

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[00:32:07] Hazel: dear. I think there is that thing of, I mean, it, it all felt quite serious. I mean, you've read the book, haven't you? So you know that. academic achievement was the way that I got positive attention from my father and, it became something that I therefore held very tightly and became something that was very important to me. and I was unwell during my first degree and I ended up getting a tutu, which was It was so devastating to me, so devastating.

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[00:33:12] I'd like to give myself an act book to start off with. Um, but I think, like, you're more, you're more than your grades. You're more than what you achieve. and And to go and play, so again, I think, I mean, I enjoy study, so, but I became kind of very much about, that. I'm also, I mean, I painted, when I was younger, I did a lot of painting and I think I could have gone that route.

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[00:34:14] potentially good money, rather than the thing that was creative and, and a bit more risky. And it's interesting now because I've got a nine year old daughter and I'm actually worried that I'm not pushy enough.

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[00:34:47] Would you like some lessons? And she said, Well, no, because mommy, they're going to make me repeat the same thing over and over again. And I just want to play. And I just want to enjoy it. You know, you're like, ugh, yeah. Maybe if I'd had some of her, some of her essence, that she can see that. whereas for me, it was like, oh, actually I could get good at this.

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[00:35:13] Ross: Wow. And I see that playfulness in your work and your writing now, is that something you relate to when you hear me say that?

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[00:36:10] Because, you know, actually bringing in a bit of joy, making people laugh, it's all part of it, isn't it? even when life is really, really tough, There is always something that can make you smile or there's something that you can laugh about. I do a lot of work with the fire service and again, you know, well known for dealing with really, really, horrific things.

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[00:36:51] Ross: absolutely get that, and I guess we know when to dial that up and dial it down a bit. We can use those, that sense we were describing earlier to do that, and maybe sometimes just testing the boundaries a bit,

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[00:37:07] Ross: yes,

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[00:37:30] the feedback was, yeah, no, we liked, this person who was. Able to be, I think, be credible, you know, be in that space of saying I know this stuff, I know what I'm talking about, and I also feel okay to share the, some of my messiness, and some of my imperfection, and just to be, you know, be with you in it, and I think that, that is something that to me is so [00:38:00] important, As it makes me think of social identity theory, this whole, like, we rather than I, I'm not standing up in front of people saying, I've got everything sorted, and I am teaching you how to do it so that you can follow in my footsteps.

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[00:38:37] Ross: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. and it's very act consistent, if we can demonstrate we're experiencing the same human condition that everyone else is and not positioning ourselves on a pedestal, I think that's invaluable as a, as a stance for us as we facilitate work with groups.

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[00:38:55] Ross: Now Hazel, I'm keen to get onto the book, but before I do, I want to ask you a traditional peopleship question, and that's about your song choice.

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[00:39:15] Hazel: So, I am, I am a Swifty. I love Taylor Swift. I went to the Eras tour, you know, the full, kitted out, gold, spangly, yeah. It was amazing. one of the best days of my life. And, so I chose I can do it with a broken heart. Now, the reason that I chose that was, when I first heard it, it reminded me of pre burnout Hazel, who, like I say, I had post natal depression, and I would have these terrible thoughts, and I would feel awful, and then I would rock up at work, and I would be able to perform. Looking back, that was a really painful [00:40:00] time for me, but I think I was really proud of this ability to perform, even though my heart was breaking, at home and then I thought about the way that Taylor, get into my love for Taylor now, um, how she uses music. So her songs are, you know, it's about the way that she processes her emotions and how she works through the stuff that happens to her.

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[00:40:46] We're doing the thing. We're doing the stuff that's important to us, even though, you know, we're carrying around our own pain. and Sorry, I feel like I'm bringing the mood down now. But, but it is, to me, it's that anthem of you can still do it with a broken heart. It, it, it's, yeah.

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[00:41:08] Mm-hmm

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[00:41:21] Hazel: Not today.

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[00:41:30] That's it folks, part one of my chat with Hazel in the bag. But fear not, Hazel will be back next week to talk about her brilliant book. Coaching through burnout. You'll find the show notes for this episode at peoplesoup. captivate. fm or wherever you get your podcasts. if you liked this episode, I'd love it if you told us why. You can email at peoplesoup. pod at gmail. com and there are some changes on the socials, Peasoopers. I've stopped posting on [00:42:00] Twitter because I no longer value the place it has become. And I've also retired my Facebook page for PeopleSoup.

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[00:42:18] Stuff that could really be useful for them. So please do share, subscribe, rate and review. Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic. And Alex Engelberg for his vocals. But most of all, dear listener, thanks to you.

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[00:42:37] They are obsessed with your dog, who I believe is called Luca, and if I've got this right, is a cock a doodle poo.

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[00:42:49] Ross: Oh! Is that my misunderstanding?

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