Navigating Self-Doubt with Sam Hart

PART TWO MASTER

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[00:00:06] Sam: it's so easy to get caught up in your head when you're just alone and, um, Going over these problems that you've got or going over these thoughts over and over again, instead of just getting them out there into the world, talking to a colleague, talking to a friend, talking to someone in your family.

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[00:00:46] get out of that relationship, get out of that school,

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[00:01:06] Sam's people soup ingredients are openness, reflection, and exploration, with a side order of flexibility.

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[00:01:39] It's a real treasure trove of tips.

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[00:02:07] We love it that you're part of our community.

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[00:02:27] I'm also planning an open course, where I deliver the training protocol I developed with Dr. Paul Flaxman to people who are interested in navigating their working lives more effectively, considering what matters, and what might be getting in the way in terms of being the person they'd really like to be.

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[00:02:58] Sam, when we were planning for you coming on the podcast, we identified a skill we both have and we thought, wouldn't it be a lovely to have an episode where we talk about worrying what other people think of us.

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[00:03:12] Ross: Because it's something that we are both quite good at doing. You mentioned in part one how you can, what I would call catastrophize, would you call it catastrophizing?

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[00:03:39] Ross: So we thought we'd do our second part on this topic. And Sam, why is this important to you to share this?

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[00:04:32] It's like a little microcosm of life, isn't it? Like we're going through all these things, all these experiences, all these, you know, the highs and lows. And it's all about how we decide to experience it and like what we've put in place to, I don't know, measure and analyze or whatever these experiences.

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[00:05:16] And. It's only when you start talking to people that you realize no, no, other people are going through this as well, because we think everyone else is really confident. Don't we? So many people are good at putting on a mask of confidence and proficiency, and I think maybe it takes a bit of maturity and it comes with age where you realize that that person actually isn't as confident as I thought they were.

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[00:06:02] Ross: And I said in the first part of our chat I really value the way you share your experiences because I think not enough men do talk about their own sort of internal experiences. I absolutely agree because I know that, but, more people worry about what other people think about them than we might imagine. So part of our attempt in this part two is to normalize that a bit more. And people might be surprised to hear you and me talking like this. Because in our professions we stand up or we, we host podcasts, we watch television.

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[00:06:56] Sam: comedian said it but it's something like in an interview. They were asked. Are you nervous when you go on stage and they replied? Of course. I'm nervous. I'm nervous every time and if I wasn't then I would I'd stop doing it because then it wouldn't be of any you know, if I wasn't nervous?

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[00:07:30] And so we're worrying about what people think, because we don't want to let them down or look like we're stupid or say the wrong thing or whatever. And I guess. That's only happening because you are putting yourself out there. So it's like, it's just part of it, isn't it? It's part of being on social media.

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[00:08:04] Is that embarrassing? What are my mates going to say? How are people going to take this? And it's hard because it's a balance because sometimes you do go too far. Sometimes you do share the wrong thing, say the wrong thing and make a mistake. But that's all part of it as well, isn't it? And how do we get better?

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[00:08:27] Ross: route to mastery, if there is such a thing. involves putting yourself out there, as you say, and also making mistakes. If we are moving towards things that matter to us, then that anxiety or that worry is a, is a sort of indicator that you're on the right track. People often think if people are doing stuff that matters to them, it just comes easy.

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[00:09:19] Sam: I think from very early on, because I think it links to kind of that, like that social anxiety that we mentioned, I can remember from a very young age, you know, pre university teenage years, being really nervous when the focus was on me, if there's a group and people start asking about, you know, what I've been doing or I don't know, some achievement or something.

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[00:10:00] And it's so it can be so excruciatingly embarrassing. And I'm trying to get more of a hang on it, trying to like understand why that is, partly I worry, I think that the dialogue that's going in my head is don't sound like a show off. Don't sound like a show off. Don't sound like a show off.

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[00:10:51] There's something inside of me. That's Don't get too cocky. Don't think this is all gonna work out because something's gonna go wrong

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[00:11:03] Sam: I think so. Yeah, I think I was mainly shy but maybe with friends kind of groups of friends I was like the opposite of shy. It's like I was making up for lost times in Enjoying being the center of attention when it was kind of close friends. I knew or maybe with kind of a bit of drink in my system, a bit of alcohol in my system.

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[00:11:27] Marker

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[00:11:39] At least as far as I can remember, but it's like maybe that's kind of internalized a bit like that. That was my role in the family was the younger one, the baby of the family, the quiet one. And yeah, I think growing up, I was more of the, you know, sit in the corner and, and, and stay quiet. Don't, don't cause too much of a[00:12:00]

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[00:12:29] I would go bright red.

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[00:12:32] Ross: Oh geez, man. It's kind of like, what is going on? And bright red, not just to a mild changing in color, but like a bloody beetroot.

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[00:12:46] Ross: Where I could actually feel the heat. People would go

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[00:12:59] now

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[00:13:02] Ross: Cuz and when you think about what that was, it was me saying my name and the department I worked in

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[00:13:09] Ross: So it's amazing that we've we've we've ended up in this places where we are where we are Kind of putting ourselves out there professionally and we're driven by Wanted to support others, I guess. That's a value I didn't mention in part one. Supporting others, making a difference for other people. I really see that in you.

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[00:13:35] Sam: it is. And I'm, I'm proud of that as well, that it feels like my, you know, the

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[00:13:56] I mean, I'm not saying I don't know why, because my parents very [00:14:00] much instilled that in me, you know. My dad being in education, my mum being in kind of social services and working for the government and then doing other things later on in life. Talking of curious people, I mean, she went back and did a psychology A level, then learned to be a personal trainer, now works in a college helping people with visual impairments and things.

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[00:14:22] Sam: So definitely people around me instilled that as well, helping people. And that's definitely a. Value yeah, what worth are you putting out there into the world and there was something else I was going to mention and i've completely forgotten what it is just before that I can't remember. Sorry.

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[00:14:43] But please do share it if it does. so let's get a bit practical. In what scenarios do you start to worry about what other people think of you? Can you think of any scenarios? You've mentioned a couple actually already, the, the returning from a social event or a family meal, reflecting on what you've said.

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[00:15:04] Sam: that is a big one though. That is a big one. I can remember even talking to my friend the other day.

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[00:15:11] Sam: friends. Because one way I talk to this particular friend is on Call of Duty. You know, we play online gaming. But that's our time. You know, once a week to have a two hour conversation, which we'd never do.

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[00:15:36] Should I be more present? Did I check my phone too much? But anyway, that's one scenario for sure. Um, but then others yet. You know, delivering training in a school. I've been the head of P. I've been the head of science. I've had to lead training. I've done other workshops, either in my capacity as a teacher or, myself, you know, the breath work, ice bath workshops.

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[00:16:22] Ross: Yeah.

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[00:16:41] But my intentions are good. So I'm going to go for it. Do you know what I mean? So I think as long as you've got the right intentions behind what you're sharing, it's okay to have a bit of that cringe maybe behind it, because you're doing it for the right reasons. yeah.

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[00:17:23] But then like you, I think, well, this might be helpful to someone to listen to my guest and to how they're conceptualizing the approach to this problem in life or their, their specialism. So let's, let's go for it. Cause that outweighs those, that sort of inner dialogue in my mind that is going, you're an imposter, you're an idiot, you're a fool type thing.

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[00:17:49] Ross: other things, like you say, social situations, training, but you're absolutely right. Some days I'm like delivering a workshop to a group of leaders, for example, and I'm on [00:18:00] it. And sometimes I actually look back on those and think, Do you realize how senior those people were and how important they are?

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[00:18:29] And you know how my podcast is heavily infused with act. And I know you've come across it. But when, when did you first discover act, Sam?

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[00:19:09] And that's when I kind of, you know, all you and others, they, you all seem to just every time I talk to you. you know, the conversation was framed in such a way that appealed to me and made sense. It was like, yeah, that resonates that seems to be effective. That seems to be a good way to examine things.

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[00:19:41] I'm by no means an expert and I don't understand all the lingo and everything, but I just like to think I can hold my own with, with, with psychologists and have these conversations and any ones that, any, any that I do.

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[00:20:12] And it's just it's fascinating and it just makes sense to me.

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[00:20:39] And it kind of liberated me and, and led me to reflect on life thinking, well partly in the early days thinking, well what could have been if I hadn't got in my own way so much. But also then just keeping practicing applying these tools to current situations and I'm sure I'm doing things now that I wouldn't have done.

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[00:21:22] We get a job in like Dare I say, the civil service, and don't get me wrong, in my civil service career I had a really great time, I did lots of different things, but it reached a point where I felt I'm not having the impact I would like to have, and that's not in a big headed way, that's just one of those itches you talked about, could I support people more effectively from the outside, and that, that was the conclusion I finally reached, it took a while.

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[00:22:06] I wish I'd learned to understand my thoughts better. I wish I'd learned to, um, I'm struggling for an example now, but you know all that kind of thing and then yeah, what you say about kind of just going with the flow. It's just so easily done. Isn't it in the modern day where we just? Go with the flow because we're just so busy.

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[00:22:40] There's so many people to take care of that we don't have any time. And one thing that I've There's In the past year become I've been really interested in is, well, the work of James Hollis. I don't know if you've heard of James Hollis, who's kind of Jungian, isn't he? And so, um, he, he talks about like when these feelings come up and how like, kind of like the midlife crisis and these things, how and he comes at it like I'm reading a book at the moment, which is under Saturn shadow.

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[00:23:24] So I think I might have just kind of Done a huge jump from where we were to to this, but I just kind of think it all links. It's so it's just interesting and maybe people listening. Other people can, you know, might see this in themselves. Like if you've got these things are stirring up inside of you, that that's You know, well, why is that?

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[00:24:08] Like, what are you doing with your life, Sam? And I think it's, you know, this stuff kind of comes up and you've got to like, examine it and understand it. And, and then of course make a bit of a plan of action as well.

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[00:24:42] Sam: Yeah.

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[00:24:46] But it takes me back to what you said in part one is just taking that action. So what, let's think practically, what helps you get unstuck when you are having this thought about worrying about what others think about? What helps you get unstuck?

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[00:25:20] I've definitely learned in the past few years, a little bit of preparation can make me feel so much better. A little bit of kind of a rehearsal, a little bit of going over topics, a little bit of practicing what I'm going to say, which may be before I would have thought, I don't need to do that. I'm just going to go for it.

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[00:26:03] You're doing the Like going back over past feedback and going back over like the messages that you've received or or Or I don't know, a testimonial or something like that. I mean, a couple of people I've had on the podcast have talked about, uh, like a big me up book. Well, Ima Draper, a dating coach, actually, um, she, she talked about this, a big me up book, you know, in your low points in your points where you're feeling, Like I don't know not motivated or like an imposter like go back over your big me up book You've got all this evidence of when you performed really well Oh, that was it when I think you were mentioning about when you presented to all of those people you know all these senior people and you go wow, I just did that and it's like Spending some time with that feeling afterwards going.

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[00:27:23] I'm worried about this. I'm not sure what to do here. This happened. What do I do? Actually talking about it. Weeks and weeks have gone by in my life where I just kept things to myself and I didn't share it with anyone and I look back and think how much could I have minimized or completely eliminated the suffering I was going through by just saying look this was going on because I'm sure they would have given me some advice.

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[00:28:07] Ross: Lovely. Because I think that really helps us

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[00:29:00] Sam: um,

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[00:29:23] Hell yes. Well, I certainly still get them, but more often I can relate to them in different ways to allow me to pursue what matters to me. Do you, do you feel

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[00:30:00] Quitting

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[00:30:34] And that might be that internal dialogue, talking to yourself, but it might be talking to someone else. It also could be just writing it down, couldn't it? Like, I feel like I should quit. I feel like I'm not good at this. Here are all the reasons why. And then you read it on paper and you're like, hold on.

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[00:30:52] Ross: Yeah. Yeah. All too often we buy into our own thoughts and treat them as a hundred percent true or a hundred percent worthy of our full attention. And you're right. Ways to get that distance, writing it down, sharing it with a friend. It can help you change the impact of those thoughts. And like you say, absolutely it's a work in progress.

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[00:31:32] but you're talking about, I lead a boring sort of life.

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[00:31:37] Ross: And let me, let me go on because I try and explain it because you say you've got these routines, you're getting up at the same time, you've got these routines that support you and what you want to achieve in life and your well being around fitness, around diet, around sleep. I wonder if you could just talk a bit more how you've developed those.

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[00:31:58] Sam: Yeah, sure. I [00:32:00] guess it's just, and I call I say they're boring, isn't it? Because it's kind of compared to what your teenage or early twenties self would have thought is living an exciting and happy and wildlife. It's like I'm doing all the opposite of that. Basically, there's another funny post kind of related to this that I see where it's kind of like, okay.

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[00:32:40] So, yeah, going to bed and waking up at the same time. Kind of limiting how much alcohol I drink now. You know, I've done long periods without drinking at all. Now I might have one or two beers apart from at the Christmas party recently with my gym and I had too much and I definitely paid for it. Um, like eating lots of whole foods, less processed foods, um, Yeah, wearing a sleep mask at night.

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[00:33:04] Sam: I think, you know, 10 years ago, if you'd have pictured myself with a sleep mask on, I would have laughed. But, you know, it makes a difference. So all these seemingly simple, boring things actually just can help you feel, more vibrant, more energetic, more present. But it goes against maybe what we're told is a good life and an exciting life.

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[00:33:45] I've had like some really high highs, but then it feels like they're always. Balanced out with quite a low low and I feel like I'm at a point in life where I just want I just want it to be steady. I just I enjoy this kind of quiet contentment [00:34:00] It's a real joy to be living like that where you've just got your routines in place You know who you are a little bit better.

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[00:34:09] Ross: Yeah,

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[00:34:13] Ross: and it allows you to do more of what matters to you.

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[00:34:17] Ross: It's kind of creating those conditions around you that allow you to wake up feeling invigorated and, and looking after your instrument

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[00:34:28] Ross: and role modeling for others. How it can be. I think that's it. That's it.

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[00:34:36] Sam: Oh,

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[00:34:56] Maybe in the what I'm experiencing more. Yeah. Now, alongside these great habits that have done me so, you know, served me so well, but also there's definitely been periods where I've been too attached to those habits. You know, I've got to train today and if I don't, I beat myself up or I then train and I overtrain and then I don't feel great or I've got to wake up and I've got to meditate because that's my habit that I've put in now.

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[00:35:48] But also don't worry about. If, you miss a day or something goes wrong or you're out in a meet have and you're having a meal and there's a pudding brought out and you eat it like don't [00:36:00] beat yourself up because the benefit that you had from enjoying that meal and that dessert with, you know, your friends or family far outweighs, you know, the health implications or whatever that it might have on you.

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[00:36:10] Sam: So I think we just needs a bit of balance because there's a lot of the kind of You know the discipline bro types out there that are like you've got to do this wake up at 5 a. m. Have a nice bath Do your meditation do your breath work then go out and train and lift weights and if you're not you're a loser and It's like some people need that they do.

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[00:36:52] And that's just another form of kind of, you know, self affliction or something, or it's just another form of beating yourself up. It's another form of control. And so I think, yeah, we want to put these things in place experiment, but you also need to be cautious and you need to adapt and be flexible.

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[00:37:10] Ross: Yeah,

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[00:37:14] Ross: And that stance, I so agree Sam, and that stance of, I would describe it as curiosity and kindness towards yourself. Like if you miss a day, or if you had a, if you have a pudding, that's okay. Because I absolutely agree that what you got from having that pudding and great company is, it's wonderful.

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[00:37:49] Sam: It's like having a glass of wine as well. Sorry, it could be a dessert or it could be a glass of wine where you could be so kind of strict. No, no alcohol. I've heard that alcohol is really bad for me. So I'm just going to completely [00:38:00] cut it out. And I've done, you know, as I said, I've done months without alcohol and it feels good and it's fine.

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[00:38:32] Ross: Yeah. Yeah.

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[00:38:46] Sam: Well, I think this is very much linked to everything that we've just talked about because I mean i'm quite pleased with the the quality and the integrity of the guests that I have come on the show And I say that because All of them, they, as far as I'm aware, you know, they come on and they, they're so, um, professional, they're not trying to sell anything.

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[00:39:38] It's like the overlap in the advice is it's the simple things that matter you know eating whole foods Sleep is important. So get a sleep mask sleep in the dark and a bit cooler room than your other rooms, you know Do exercise that you love it's not like they're saying You should do this one specific workout.

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[00:40:19] So. It takes a bit of time to, unpick that and, and I don't know, re evaluate your relationship with some of the more complicated bits of advice that you've been told throughout your life around diet and around exercise and all that stuff. Yeah, unpick it and then try these just simple approaches, but do them consistently and give yourself time and, and see what effect that, they have.

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[00:40:50] Ross: Wonderful.

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[00:40:54] Sam: I think another. Theme that comes through is some version of know thyself. Isn't it? And this is I mean, this is common in psychology and religions. It feels like everyone's saying the same thing like understand yourself. So again, if it's talking to a psychologist, if it's talking to a specialist. Coach or a mental fitness coach or a doctor or someone that's interested in longevity and happiness It's like it all starts from that awareness of knowing you knowing your values something.

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[00:41:27] Ross: Mm

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[00:41:51] No, even that's not great Is it I want to work on next year? Is is connection is being more open with people being more [00:42:00] connected to people seeing people in real life more Because again, it's something that is recommended in so many different episodes from so many different experts in whatever their field that if you want to exercise more, join a running club.

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[00:42:33] They provide support for me. They provide inspiration like off their own back. They're keeping me motivated and sending me messages or commenting on posts saying this is great. Keep it up. Um, And so, yeah, directly or indirectly that all these guests are reminding me of the importance of connection and community.

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[00:43:16] I could continue talking to you for another couple of hours, but um, is there a workplace related kind of takeaway that you'd share with our listeners just to finish on today?

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[00:43:53] And one of them is to not take myself so seriously. Yeah, just have more of a sense of humor about things and be more relaxed [00:44:00] than not. You know, every meeting doesn't have to be with a frown and, you know. that are super serious, like you can have fun, even when you're dealing with really serious topics and outcomes and impacts that you want to have on children or other people or whatever it is.

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[00:44:52] So seriously like You This can just be fun. Whatever it is. This can be fun. so that's one And then the other one It's kind of almost the opposite to that in a way, but it's not put up with other people's can I swear? I won't swear but okay. Well, I'll just like a mild crap. We'll just go with that But not tape not put up with other people's crap.

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[00:45:38] I've been on the receiving end of all of those things. And I I look back and think I should have been so much stronger, but I was so worried about rocking the boat. I was too embarrassed about making a fuss. I kind of almost wanted to protect the people that were not treating me. Well, which is just bizarre.

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[00:46:09] Um,

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[00:46:19] Ross: Uh, Um, Sam, thank you. Love that. I love that it's related to your own experience and thank you for putting yourself out there. Thank you for coming on the show today. And thank you for watching. for role modeling and your constant learning. I'm really grateful for it and for what you do in the world.

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[00:46:44] Sam: Honestly, that means so much coming from you. It really, really does for us. I really appreciate it. And, you know, talking about how little bits of motivation can keep you going. And some just provide you with a little bit more fuel than others. Don't they? You know, a simple message might provide me with one week's fuel.

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[00:47:06] Ross: Oh, and I mean it from the bottom of my heart. So thank you, Sam.

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[00:47:14] Ross: That's it folks, part two of my chat with Sam in the bag.

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[00:47:58] Stuff that could be really [00:48:00] useful for them. So please do share, subscribe, rate, and review. Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic, and Alex Engelberg for his vocals. But most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves, Peasoopers, and bye for now.

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[00:48:24] Ross: Yeah, and for me, this is, for me, I'm just praying that all the tech is working and I'm not helium man or anything, uh, and, but, um, yeah, this is wonderful.