Anxiety the Remix with Dr Eric Goodman
Hi there and a very warm welcome to Season 5 Episode 58 of People Soup.
P Soupers - what were you doing on 28 November 2020. I can tell you what I was doing in the late afternoon - I was chatting to Dr Eric Goodman - anxiety specialist and author - about his book - Your Anxiety Beast and You: A Compassionate Guide to Living in an Increasingly Anxious World - recorded in an echoey room in our rented apartment in Malaga.
We're revisiting part two of that conversation today. Partly because Eric speaks about anxiety in such a human and relatable way, so it's useful for us all to check in with his wisdom. And also because Eric has written another book - called The Mindful Freak-out: A rescue manual for being at your best when life is at it's worst." And well be having him back on the show to talk about that book over the next couple of months.
We start with my review, find out what the toughest animal on the planet is and talk about the human superpower of mental time travel. You also find out how we can teach our anxiety, which often has a better safe than sorry mentality. We finish with an insight in to the illustrations in the book - by dear and much missed friend of the show - Louise Gardner, your ACT Auntie. It's a joy to hear Eric reflect on the process of working with Lou.
People Soup is an award winning podcast where we share evidence based behavioural science, in a way that’s practical, accessible and fun. We're all about sharing the ingredients for a better work life from behavioural science and beyond.
There is a transcript for each episode. There is a caveat - this transcript is largely generated by Artificial Intelligence, I have corrected many errors but I won't have captured them all! You can also find the shownotes by clicking on notes then keep scrolling for all the useful links.
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Transcript
[00:00:00] Ross: Hi there, and a very warm welcome to Season 5, Episode 58 of PeopleSoup. It's Ross McIntosh here.
[:[00:00:09] so often is, I'll start dating when it feels comfortable or I'll go for a career advancement when it feels comfortable. I'll go back to school, when I feel ready. That's not how it works. You'll never feel those things. When you go back to school and you've done it for a while, then you'll feel ready when you've dated somebody half a dozen times or more.
[:[00:00:50] you're waiting your entire life. P Supers, let's start with a question. What were you doing on the 28th of November, 2020? I can tell you what I was doing in the late afternoon.
[:[00:01:19] We're revisiting part two of that conversation today. Partly because Eric speaks about anxiety in such a human and relatable way, so it's useful for us all to check in with his wisdom.
[:[00:01:46] We start with my review, find out what the toughest animal on the planet is, and talk about the human superpower of mental time travel. you'll also find out how we can teach our anxiety, which often has an unhelpful stance of [00:02:00] better safe than sorry. we finish with an insight into the illustrations in the book By our dear and much missed friend, Louise Gardner. Your Actante and my Actante.
[:[00:02:50] I was working here yesterday with some great leaders at Diageo.
[:[00:03:13] Tonight, we're off to the first night of a musical called El Novio de Madrid. So, for now, get a brew on and have a listen to Anxiety the Remix with the wonderful Eric Goodman.
[:[00:03:53] And this book is a big help in dealing with it. My review says, brilliant hats off Eric. I got so much out of this, [00:04:00] reading it as an adult. I also wish I'd had it as a teenager,
[:[00:04:05] Ross: I love the way it took me on a journey through that normalizing and understanding my beast and why it howls.
[:[00:04:41] And if the book's not enough and it is. But the illustrations by Luis, I Superbowl really brings some of the key concepts to life. And before I shut up and let you speak, I'd just like to share one quote from the book with our listeners, just to really set the scene. If I may, if you're using your anxiety is howling as a cue to boldly, take an anxious journey into the unknown.
[:[00:05:21] I love always getting love, getting musical references. And so, kudos for that too. So Eric, how would you introduce this book to someone?
[:[00:05:30] Eric: so I can tell you how I tend to do that with my clients at workshops and things like that. I, I start with a question. Who's the toughest animal on the plant and. You know, people will say a lion, a lot of people who say rhinoceros, I guess those must be pretty, pretty tough creatures.
[:[00:06:16] So all animals they've developed some way to give them an advantage in order to survive. so gorillas are strong. Cheetahs are fast. Porcupines got the spikes. Eels can shoot out that electricity. Right? All, all animals have come up with something to give them an advantage.
[:[00:06:58] The human superpower of mental time travel
[:[00:07:15] Well, Gets back to its own herd and it's lapping up the water, eating the grass, you know, it's for all is forgiven, all is forgotten and it lives to, to eat, you know, grass, lap up water and other day. But the human. That gets attacked by the lion barely escapes. They're going to be in the past. Oh my God.
[:[00:07:57] Do I bring other people? Maybe I should stay away [00:08:00] from places that are infested with lions to begin with. Right. and that's it. That's our superpower. That's our advantage that we mentally time travel. But another way of looking at that is we worry, worry is our thing, having this, this brain that worries in the super complex sort of way, that's our thing.
[:[00:08:58] If we treat our anxiety, like it's our enemy, like it's a demon, our tormentor, well then we're going to be living our lives with a demon and a tormentor in our head. But if we understand that our anxiety's neither demon nor tormentor, but it's a bodyguard. Our anxiety is something that's always working to try to help us, but it just is not designed for the world that it suddenly finds us in.
[:[00:09:53] but anxiety free is not real. We certainly can have an low anxiety moments. [00:10:00] But anxiety is going to be part of our lives. And so if we can think about it as our glitchy inner bodyguard, then we can focus on, giving it the best home in our nervous system that we can. So for drinking five energy drinks a day, Our anxiety is going to be living in a far more hair-trigger environment.
[:[00:10:46] No, hold it gently. Don't squeeze it. Don't try to get rid of it. Just hold it gently. Just soften your muscles and allow it to cry. It'll stop at some point. Just allow it to, to cry, hold it gently. And so I think when we're able to do that, have the best relationship with it. We can, then we can focus on teaching it.
[:[00:11:09] Eric: Where we can. So that's the one thing I think that, might be missing from some of the act stuff that I think is, is, is important is that our anxiety can learn things. It learns things all the time. So if you're nervous about giving a talk at a party or giving a talk at a, at a meeting, And you avoid it.
[:[00:11:56] When you can teach it all kinds of things, you can teach it to bark less. You can teach it [00:12:00] to, use the bathroom outside. Not inside. You can teach it not to bite people. You can teach all those things, but you're never going to teach it to sit at the table, dining room table, and eat with a fork and a knife and anxiety.
[:[00:12:13] Eric: You can teach it a lot. It's never going to learn it perfectly. So that's where you need things like ACT and Compassion Focused Therapy, because anxiety is never going away. And it's never going to stop misperceiving things as dangerous because it works on a better safe than sorry mentality. So we want to just have the best relationship with we can.
[:[00:12:59] on top of the anxiety.
[:[00:13:13] And it's the examples you gave you. Right. That, that way they bring it to life. And the word that has been in my head, that you call. The anxiety beast. Is glitchy for me. I just, it's such a great word and it's, it's kind of quite humorous word for me, and it really helps me relate to my anxiety beast as it, as it glitchy, glitchy pal
[:[00:13:45] Ridiculous horror genre
[:[00:14:08] And so if you think about what happens when you're watching a horror movie, And your adrenaline starts flowing because if it didn't, it wouldn't be a very good horror movie, but that is your brain is saying there is a threat in the room with you right here. Right now. Let me give you the energy. You need to fight it or to run and hide, And same thing with roller coasters. It's ridiculous that there is a thing called roller coasters out there. just from a logical standpoint, because we're doing some, something that is incredibly safe, but our nervous system is misinterpreting it as we're careening to our death. And so it's flooding us with adrenaline to, to get us to do something.
[:[00:15:08] glitch within our nervous system.
[:[00:15:18] Beauty and the beast
[:[00:15:40] It's powerful. It smells bad, right? It, it, can be very offensive, you know, superficially. But it's got a heart of gold down deep and, and, you know, we learned halfway through the movie that the beast is actually the misguided hero. [00:16:00] And I think our anxiety is like that, I don't want to under, estimate how painful anxiety can be at times and how, how unpleasant it can be to, to be around anxiety.
[:[00:17:05] so we teach it where we can. We, we, we be friended so that we don't suffer every time it wakes up. And we, we try to have an adaptive rather than a
[:[00:17:20] Ross: Thanks, Eric. And it's so great to hear you talk about this. I've actually been talking about this interview and your book with my dad. Who's 85. my mum died last year and he, so he's living on his own. He's in a pandemic he's isolating and we quite often talk about anxiety and I've started to share a little bit of.
[:[00:17:58] Eric: Well, I, I actually think [00:18:00] that, as we get older, it even, it takes on more of an importance because as we get older, life can get pretty scary. You know, when we're dealing with, illnesses, we're dealing with. You know, needing to go in for a painful and scary medical procedures and all, ultimately the thing anxiety, really wants to protect us from us is our own demise.
[:[00:18:50] Ross: Yeah. And I've mentioned Louise, a couple of times, I just went to delve into what was it like working with Louise, because the way she's represented the beast is phenomenal. And she's, I think she's really captured the. The stance or the, the spirit of, of what you were writing in your words.
[:[00:19:30] Right? So, so I imagine the peace supers, I've learned all, all about that and what I wanted was a visual diffusion strategy. So, so what I ideally want for, for, for my own clients is that. When they're feeling anxious and they start to think that they're going to want to struggle with their anxiety.
[:[00:20:19] And so, when Louise was recommended by a colleague and, you know, I didn't realize before I met her. That she's an expert in all these concepts. She's been studying these for, for, for years. And she knows this stuff really well. and so she and I, I I've said this a number of times, the absolute, my favorite part of writing this book was working with Louise, and just kind of bouncing ideas back and forth.
[:[00:21:24] so, yeah,
[:[00:21:27] was just a joy to work with.
[:[00:21:36] Eric: It was a lot of fun to make. And again, my hope is that it can help people to have a more adaptive relationship with their anxiety into, I suppose really the, the kind of goes back to, this notion that anxiety is. Pathological [00:22:00] and that there is some secret way to become anxiety free in life.
[:[00:22:34] they need to keep trying these different tricks to become anxiety free, you know, as this permanent thing. And instead, just focus on developing a much better relationship with their anxiety. teach it where you can, soothe it adaptively where you can and bring it with you rather than say, well, one of the things I hear
[:[00:23:24] Then you'll feel comfortable dating that person, right. When you've publicly spoken over and over and over, then you will be ready to do it. And so if you're waiting until you're ready,
[:[00:23:42] Ross: I couldn't agree more. It's so it's so wonderful. The way you describe it. Thank you. Now, Eric, I like to ask my guests a rather odd question. And that is if you had a song that could announce your arrival into a room, whether it's a virtual room or a real room for the next few weeks, not forever [00:24:00] for the next few weeks, what might that song be for you?
[:[00:24:09] time by pink Floyd. Yeah.
[:[00:24:14] Ross: I think so. Yes, I can't hum it, but I think I do know
[:[00:24:19] Eric: taking away the moments that bring on the Dole day, your fritter and waste your hours in offhand way. It kind of represents, I think, uh, what we were just talking about. And that is kind of not waiting to move on. With what's important to you in life. and song is about how quickly time goes.
[:[00:25:40] And that's what that song in my mind represents. Now. I'm assuming that's what it represents. maybe someone somewhere who's, you know, more of a pink Floyd of fishy nada will say, no, it actually represents something dark and sinister. Um, but, represents
[:[00:25:58] Ross: Thank you.
[:[00:25:59] Ross: [00:26:00] And. Eric Mike, you have, or you could wait for the piece. It was just to encapsulate some of what you've shared with us. So generously today,
[:[00:26:30] Just don't try to relax. Don't try to make anything go away, but hold it the way you would hold a newborn baby. And again, when a newborn baby is crying. That can be pretty aversive. It can be pretty unpleasant, but you still hold it softly. You still hold it with kindness. You're not shaking it. You're not, you're not throwing it out the window or anything like that.
[:[00:27:27] Don't take my word for it. Don't don't take the words of the books for it. Try it and just notice the difference when you activate that soothing, part of the brain versus the threat drive. Oh my God. I'm feeling anxious. I got to get rid of it or the drive part, you know, I'm going to do something to make myself anxiety free right now.
[:[00:27:58] see what happens.
[:[00:28:23] So thank you so much for coming on the show,
[:[00:28:29]
[:[00:28:48] Ross: Oh, I'm absolutely blown away. You've given me, give me goosebumps. So, um, that's a good sign. I think.
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