Compassion the Remix with Dr Stan Steindl

for: 2024

[00:00:00] Ross: hi there, and a very warm welcome to Season 5, Episode 59 of PeopleSoup. It's Ross McIntosh here.

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[00:00:34] Where we might be thinking compassion is, is silly or, you know, weak or, you know, we don't, we, we probably could be more compassionate, but we don't want to sort of a thing. So, so that's, that's really a key. Now, the, one of the tricky bits. Is the question, you know, what is compassion? That that's the first dilemma, because often times the definition can be part of the fears, blocks and resistances.

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[00:01:24] With that in mind, we're revisiting part two of my chat with Dr. Stan Steindl. We talk about his brilliant book, the Gifts of Compassion, how to understand and overcome suffering. Stan talks about his intention for the book and then we move on to the development of the Compassionate Other.

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[00:01:53] [00:02:00] Now, for those of you who are new to PeopleSoup, Hi! Hola! Welcome to the community. We're an award winning podcast where we share evidence based behavioural science in a way that's practical, accessible, and fun.

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[00:02:26] Let's just scoot over to the news desk. And the headline news is that I've decided it's time for a PeopleSoup summer break. And this will be the final episode of Season 5. But fear not, Peasoopers, because we'll be back in a matter of weeks with Season 6.

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[00:02:56] It's the UK and Republic of Ireland conference on the 16th and 17th of November this year. The theme of the conference is expanding horizons, nurturing connections and growth in contextual behavioral science. and there's a great range of keynotes, speakers, symposiums, papers, all sorts.

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[00:03:42] You heard me, wherever you are in the world. His previous triumph was sending bookmarks to Peru. So let's see where else we can spread the word. For now, get a brew on, and have a listen to my conversation with Stan Steindl.

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[00:04:18] Stan: Oh, yes, please. I'd love to hear it.

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[00:04:21] Ross: So up here we go. Stan Shantay, you stay. This book is awesome. Over the last couple of years, I've really set sail upon my journey, exploring compassion focused therapy, and I've read a fair few books and papers. Yours is the first book that has really hooked me. You take the reader on a journey with practical techniques and personal stories that really bring the concepts to life in a way that's both accessible practical.

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[00:05:15] And healthy relationships that blew my mind. And I really I'm just diving back into those at the moment. And, you know, you know, my focus is on people at work, Stan, and there was just one of the stories you told that really Sean, for me, that really resonated, you're talking about you're working with some student nurses and you.

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[00:06:29] And I love the way you use this story, just to help me understand these three flows and trying to achieve a balance was an important part of the discussion in the training with nurses. But I think for any workplace, this would be an amazing way in and for the nurses. It was a great place to start preparing for their own self care as they started their careers.

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[00:06:56] Stan: I am feeling very, very humbled by your wonderful words and, and the description of, of how you felt reading it. I, um, I really appreciate hearing that Ross. Thank you.

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[00:07:22] Stan: well, I think I. Wanted to write a book that was, a very practical, plain language entry point into compassion focused therapy. And a lot of the books that are written the CFT is, is, is very comprehensive. It, it draws on. All sorts of psychological science, attachment theory, neuroscience, spiritual traditions, and wisdom traditions, and sometimes can [00:08:00] feel even a little overwhelming.

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[00:08:37] And so it works through. Uh, a series of, of core skills around, uh, bringing it back to the body and body-based practices, using imagery, cultivating a sense of a compassionate, other cultivating, a sense of one's own compassionate self, and then bringing all of that. To certain aspects of, of who we are, the multiple selves, the, the anxious self, or the angry self, or the sad self, and then ultimately bringing the compassionate self to things like self criticism and shame, and trying to find ways to, to forgive and, and relate well.

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[00:09:36] Ross - on developing the compassionate other

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[00:10:35] Stan: Basil, always a whippet.

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[00:10:39] Ross: And there's just something about that connection. And what can I learn from him about just being in the present about disconnecting? You helps me disconnect and many other things and many other qualities you admire him for. So. I felt very fortunate in that chapter just to actually pause and think about that and then really develop them in my mind and my approach in my own practice.

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[00:11:17] Stan: yeah, it's a personal practice workbook. I was sort of had the dilemma of do I include the. The exercises and the space for writing in the book itself, or separate that out and create a, a kind of a, a separate workbook. I sort of felt like separating it out was, was a nice idea because then the book itself might be shared, you know, you might have a friend and think, Oh, well, they could have a read of this too, but you can keep your own workbook and so on.

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[00:12:30] The qualities of the ideal compassionate other for, for you, there might be wisdom and strength and courage and a caring commitment. You know, those three things are often in there from a, from a CFT point of view. But what else, you know, is, is it, warmth and cuddles or is it, uh, humor and playfulness or is it.

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[00:13:25] And we start to think, okay, those qualities there, and those qualities there, it might even be, you know, not real people, fictional characters or people from a movie or even spiritual figures and so on. And we can. We can sort of really stop and think, actually being playful is a part of compassion, really, in some ways, and, and being playful with this and, and sort of stopping and thinking, you know, what, what might my ideal compassionate other look like?

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[00:14:25] if I'm wanting to tap into wisdom, I often bring to mind my grandfather, who was actually my father's father, David Steindl, I think of, him as, as sort of that figure of wisdom. So yeah, I think there's, there's these, people, these living creatures, these. other characters, they give us these little gifts and then that's where the title comes from in a way, you know, like that's one of the gifts, compassion is, is that we experience these qualities from others.

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[00:15:29] Ross: Wow. Love it. Thanks. Thanks Dan.

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[00:15:57] Ross: Oh, no, he violated your [00:16:00] compassionate, other by having a different role.

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[00:16:06] Getting compassion into organisations

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[00:16:33] Fears, blocks and resistances to compassion

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[00:16:58] That people can have fears, blocks and resistances to compassion, and the workplace can bring up those sorts of fears, blocks, and resistances. Often when we're at work, we are tapping into different motivational systems. We're tapping into a competitive motivation, for example, or we're tapping into an achievement.

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[00:18:00] Motivations and, you know, the, the need to, achieve certain key targets, for example, or to demonstrate that, we're being effective and, and having good outcomes or, you know, other sorts of, motivations. So I think that's the. Bit to ponders. So if we go into an organization and we propose compassion, uh, in one way or another, what might be some of the fears, blocks and resistances that arise, you know, what might be the fears, what might, actually be activating their threat system there?

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[00:19:08] Where we might be thinking compassion is, is silly or, you know, weak or, you know, we don't, we, we probably could be more compassionate, but we don't want to sort of a thing. So, so that's, that's really a key. Now, the, one of the tricky bits. Is the question, you know, what is compassion? That that's the first dilemma, because often times the definition can be part of the fears, blocks and resistances.

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[00:20:05] It, it takes great wisdom. It takes great strength and courage, and it really is about a commitment to being. Helpful rather than harmful it. It's not about anything to sort of, high and mighty or anything like that. It's, it's just this core commitment to be helpful rather than harmful to myself and others.

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[00:20:58] And what was that like? What did that feel like in them to shift into that, that motivation and just gradually creating the sense of, of what is compassion? What is it. Really feel like to receive it and to give it, and then gradually kind of having a sense of, you know, sort of moving through the fears blocks and resistances and working out just, just what might it be in this current organizational context?

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[00:22:00] Ross: why I was standing. you've given me a new way in to, to think about this with organizations. I love the idea of perhaps going in introducing the idea of compassion and then sort of facilitating a discussion about what, what are your fears blocks and resistances. And allowing people to get them out on the table and say, let's, let's discuss those.

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[00:22:51] and it was the CEO who actually said, well, all right, Ross, but we don't have time to do that. We are moving here and there where I gel, we get shit done. And. We don't have time to do this. And I tried to sort of present that we could do both, but given more time with them, I'd really like to start getting people to share their fears, blocks and resistance.

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[00:23:18] STUMBLED ACROSS ROLE OF MOTIVATIONAL INTERVIEWING

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[00:23:36] Or, you know? Yeah. But you could do this, and then they, you say, Oh yeah, but we can't because of this. and there, we have it now where we're stuck in, in the discord. But, but like you say, often a really powerful response is to say, tell me more about that. Tell me more about. Your concerns there. What are your reservations about this idea of curiosity and [00:24:00] kindness in the world? Um, what are some of the, the reasons that you really feel reluctant to go there, or, or what, what about where you feel unable to actually to bring that in to the workplace and, and, you know, really just spending time, exploring. Validating honoring those fears, blocks and resistances. And then at some point, once they feel heard and understood about, you know, that side of it, then you might come in with a little open question.

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[00:25:55] And then you say, Oh, okay. So tell us a bit more about [00:26:00] that bit. And off we go starting to, to sort of help them to have all the good lines, you know, help them to, to actually make those arguments for compassion. It can sometimes feel like, yeah, but that's, and it takes so long to have that conversation.

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[00:26:39] So oftentimes these conversations can actually be really efficient and, and, and we can get there.

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[00:26:56] Stan: Yes. I think that it's really a process of listening, isn't it? You know, that's, that's the key, you know, when, when we, speak about compassion, sometimes we can, have a passion for compassion. And so we, we want to, lead the charge and, and so on. But if we can just stop and breathe and kind of listen and gradually evoke, you know, create that opportunity for people to really make their own arguments for where compassion perhaps can fit in the workplace.

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[00:27:48] Stan: I think for me, compassion is. About engaging with and trying to help with suffering. And [00:28:00] so, you know, it's no small thing really, to be compassionate. And often we think of compassion as some sort of, beautiful Zen uplifting kind of loveliness. But actually it really is moving towards suffering, moving towards some of the dark side of what it is to be human.

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[00:29:02] Some of the stuff that we actually don't like some of the stuff that feels really uncomfortable or unpleasant, about others and perhaps what they're going through. but also about ourselves. And so often. It might be about bringing compassion to those bits of ourselves that we really low about ourselves or hate about ourselves.

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[00:29:56] Some of those core pieces are kind of [00:30:00] like the first, the first one, right on the ladder. And then we build up from there and we start to bring in. our imagination and, and images of, perhaps a compassionate other, and the wisdom of them and what they might, what they might have to say to us, or to guide us with things.

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[00:30:43] We can just pop down the ladder again, and we can go back to the image of the compassionate are there, or we can even go back to the body and just activate the parasympathetic nervous system. Activate the soothing system. Just settle. Sooth, calm the body. And then just nudge your way back up the letter again, until we're moving to that point where it's about practicing compassion in daily life, and then gradually getting to that 0.2 steps forward one step back or whatever, where we're now really embodying our compassionate self and.

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[00:31:45] Ross: I love it. The latter that really speaks to me. Thanks, Dan. And actually feel like you're. As I climb my own ladder, I actually feel like Stan is just down there holding the ladder. So it doesn't slip for me.

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[00:32:26] And so I do hope that that kind of comes through that, that perhaps, you know, I would like that sense that, you know, I'm there for you guys, you know? And, and I know you're there for me as well.

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[00:32:46] Stan: No, no one has mentioned that. I mean, no, but the publisher and so on hasn't hasn't mentioned anything about an audio book. It would be sort of fun to do. I can't imagine. I guess you'd just have to sit in a little booth and read it out loud. It would, it would be an interesting experience.

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[00:33:11] now. So, um, okay. I think, I think you could call that a growing demand.

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[00:33:27] Ross: Gotcha. Stan. Thank you so much for joining me on people say I really value your reflections, your openness, and it's been a joy. So thank you so much.

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[00:33:45] AFTER OUTRO

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[00:34:06] you enjoyed this episode of the podcast, we'd love you to do three things.

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[00:34:55]

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[00:35:12] Ross: Yeah. Oh gosh. Yeah. Cross pollination or something.

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[00:35:25] Well,