Getting practical with Cognitive Defusion with Dr Richard MacKinnon

PART 2

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[00:00:06] Thanks Richard. You know how we said we're learning from each other during this process. Oh, that's amazing for me. I absolutely love that. First of all, I want to read Saga.

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[00:00:31] It's kind of like lying cat. See, I'm very skilled at my Eartha Kitt impression.

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[00:00:56] Ross: Peasoopers, it's Part 3B of our mini series, the part you've been waiting for. it's my collaboration with Dr. Richard McKinnon from Work Life Psych, Where we delve into all things related to psychological flexibility and act. We're aiming to show you how relevant it is. Not only to your work life, but to your whole life.

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[00:01:32] We share really practical techniques and skills that you can try right now, to allow you to relate differently to your thoughts, freeing up your energy and attention to enable you to move forward to what matters in life.

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[00:02:09] Our mission is to unlock workplace potential with expert perspectives from contextual behavioral science.

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[00:02:37] so for now, get a brew on and have a listen to part three B of my collaboration with Dr. Richard McKinnon.

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[00:03:12] And I don't mean in like an x factor way. I mean like, I'm going to be discovered for the fraud and the charlatan that I am. will people think of me? That's another one that infuses every part of my life. I was just saying to Richard earlier, I've joined a new gym. And I don't feel that confident entering that environment.

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[00:04:01] And sometimes people will say to me, Oh, you've got me to write them down and they feel even more concrete than they did. Thanks, mate. And in response to that, I don't know how, if you've ever had that sort of, uh, response, Richard, but I would say, well, well, stick with it. Stick with it if you're willing to.

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[00:04:30] Richard: this is probably a good, a good point to drop in right now, which is, I don't think there's one size fits all solution when it comes to diffusion skills. And depending on who you are as a person, some of these resonate with you. More than others, but let's remember what we said earlier Diffusion is not about getting rid of this stuff.

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[00:05:12] No, I'm not good enough is something you can then use in the other exercises

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[00:05:40] And it's not universal, but typically some people will say, Oh, since I was a kid. And at that point, it's just useful to say, well, Is it time that we could think about changing our relationship with that thought? Because it seems to be limiting you now in some way. And a couple more [00:06:00] actually. I'm going to save one till the end I think. But I'm going to share with you another one that I typically share in group situations. And that's a playful nickname for the mind. Now, listen to those words, a playful, we're not looking to criticise our minds saying, oh you're terrible, you're so bloomin annoying, you're a dreadful piece of work.

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[00:06:44] Remember, I think I told you in one of the previous episodes that I'm a catastrophizer. I come from a long line of catastrophizers and I can escalate a minor incident to utter catastrophe in nanoseconds, and I do. So I call my mind the head of drama. Why do I give it that nickname? Well, it's because if I can notice my mind kind of in flight, going down this route of, Oh my God, look what's going to happen.

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[00:07:34] Richard: Mm.

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[00:07:59] [00:08:00] And wouldn't that be a lovely whole evening experience? And then his caution calculator kicks in. And I'll keep this brief but, what if we're late into town and the service is slow in the restaurant and then we have to wolf down our food then run to the theatre and they've already closed the doors or they let us in and everyone looks round and goes, Shhh, and we have a big row.

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[00:09:02] Beautiful.

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[00:09:30] Yeah. who, who spends their day creating visual effects for a movie. And so when we are giving people license to be creative in how they label their mind or how they visualize their thoughts, it's giving them a sense of agency. It's giving them like, well, this works for me. I don't have to follow the rules for somebody else.

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[00:11:09] No, but that's a thought about the past. So that's just a memory. Well, that's a thought about the future. It's quite quite firm. I think that's a prediction. Right? So instead of, is it true or not? Is it nice or not? We're saying, well, what kind of category is that? And with practice, we're able to say, hold on, that's, that's upsetting, but that's just a memory or that's worrying, but it's a prediction.

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[00:11:57] One, it's bad form [00:12:00] in a sushi restaurant to just take every plate that comes your way. Unless you're a ravenous. Well, what do we do? No, we look at it and ask ourselves, do I want that? And if it's something that we really like, we want it in that moment, we take the plate, consume it. If we don't want it, what do we do?

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[00:12:42] But all you need to do is just keep your hands off the conveyor belt and it will pass by again. The third and final reason I love this image is that it's really bad form. So let's imagine we've got these plates coming towards us and all we can see is plate after plate of sea urchin. Like, I hate sea urchin.

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[00:13:23] No more than we can dictate to our mind, Stop giving me these memories. I don't want these memories. It doesn't work that way. We're expanding energy, we're upsetting ourselves, we're doing something that's not going to give us a good result. So it boils down to watching, observing, letting it pass if we don't want it, using it if we do want it.

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[00:14:03] So that's the, the sushi conveyor belt restaurant metaphor expanded upon.

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[00:14:17] Richard: Not everyone likes sushi. Not everyone likes those restaurants, but maybe there's another version we can come up with, but I think it works on a few levels.

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[00:14:30] Richard: One final one I'll throw into the mix

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[00:14:51] That's learning how to sort and label our mental content. But some of this stuff is a bit raw. Some of the stuff our mind gives us stings, you know, and is repetitive. So an example would be the self criticism or judgment. You know, the stuff that goes right to the heart of us. The, I'm not good enough, I'm not successful enough, I'm not a good parent.

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[00:15:39] Again, you do like this cousin, so you're not going to tell them to stop, and you're not just going to walk off. You can smile politely, but up here, he says, tapping his head, Oh, I've heard this before. I don't really need to pay attention. And so it is with some of the stuff our mind gives us about us.[00:16:00]

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[00:16:23] Instead, it's just a story that pops up. And in fact, I don't have to go through the whole story. I'm not getting rid of it, I'm not fighting it, but I tell you what, I'm not giving it any more of my limited attention. I'm going to do something in this moment. And it's not going to be because of that story.

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[00:16:57] Ross: Yeah. Lovely. And, firstly, I'm flabbergasted that we're actually related, Richard. I never knew that. That's a new one, that we have the same cousin. that's that's my first observation. That's a new observation. We'll say no more. I don't want to go into any details, but, um, the other one is I recognize sort of patterns or themes of thoughts as well.

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[00:17:24] Richard: Hmm.

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[00:17:41] That's an extreme version, but typically we'll say, Oh, I'll start next week when I'm feeling a bit better. Or I'll start in March when I know the weather will be better. So there's a big procrastination theme that can pop up for lots

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[00:17:57] Ross: And there's another one that pops up quite a lot is [00:18:00] Whenever I'm talking about self care with a group and looking after themselves, taking those small moments for themselves to either recharge their batteries or do something that has meaning for them, and there's lots of stories pop up, you're being selfish, you've got other people to look after, you've got other work to do, it's always all about you, you, you, you, you.

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[00:18:34] Richard: And it comes full circle to this, um, how we treat ourselves about these thoughts. If we buy into them, we can feel very bad about ourselves. If we acknowledge our humanity, and everyone has thoughts they don't like, everyone experiences stuff like this, we're expressing a form of self compassion, which is much more helpful. So instead of, I should be on my game 24 7, I should be sharp as a tack, I should be maximum. Productive, professional, everyone has off days, everyone has self doubt. What's possible in this moment rather than organs blazing? And your point about procrastination really fired me up there because it's a huge topic in coaching.

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[00:20:03] You're buying into that. Even though you're a smart person and you know that delay is not going to help this at all. In fact, it could make it worse. So I really just make that point to demonstrate the generalizability of diffusion skills. They can help us in so many of the everyday challenges that we face.

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[00:20:50] Ross: Absolutely, I think you've summarized it beautifully there, and I'm tempted. I don't know whether now is the right moment, but I'm tempted to introduce the passengers on the

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[00:21:00] Richard: that. Let's do it.

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[00:21:10] So, the idea is folks that you are the driver of your bus of life and the moment you sit in that seat and turn on the ignition and start moving, there's lots of chatter starts up behind you and those, that chatter, the passengers on our bus, we say they're like our thoughts. And they're clever, these passengers.

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[00:22:26] Maybe you're starting to take a small step towards a new habit. And, we think, go for it. We think you've got all the skills and the strengths needed, and we know it's going to end up in a great place for you. So, mirror, signal, maneuver, bonnie lad. Just go for it. And then there's some other passengers who are like, Ross, these seats are really uncomfortable on your bus.

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[00:23:09] Where you feel really safe and everything's familiar. You might see other people taking new avenues, but nah, that's not for you. Just keep going round and round. You know, deep down that's where you feel most comfortable and safe. And then finally, there are some other passengers who are just awful.

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[00:23:50] Because we know what's going to happen. We know there's going to be a series of unfortunate events ending in utter disaster. Otter catastrophe. So just pull over. [00:24:00] In fact, just pull over. You're not even worthy to drive this bus. Just pull over and stop. And that folks is my attempt at presenting this metaphor of the passengers on the bus, which for me brings to life what it can be like having all these thoughts or passengers inside our heads, but also really represents the human condition

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[00:25:16] We know what it's like to be a passenger. We know what it's like to have people distract us. We know what it's like to hear conflicting messages from different people, but when it's coming from inside, it just seems that more powerful. is not to argue with them. the answer is not to do with each one says, but instead to focus on where do I want to get to and let me focus on driving rather than keeping all of these things happy.

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[00:25:48] Ross: Yeah. And I just wanna go back to that tendency. 'cause sometimes when I present this to people, they say, well, I've got my strategy. I know how I deal with this. I throw all the passengers off, is just exactly [00:26:00] as you said.

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[00:26:01] Ross: And the way I would respond to that is, well, that might work in the short term.

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[00:26:30] So that's what can tend to happen.

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[00:26:58] Ross: I think because I train a lot of other people and coach a lot of people in these concepts that I'm living them every day. And sometimes those thoughts, I don't catch them. And sometimes I notice they're starting to impact on me. So there's always a good place to start. You could even use that experience of a thought that's not particularly helpful as a prompt to go, Ah, I'm onto you.

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[00:27:50] I'm having the thought that I'm not clever enough. So you see what I'm doing, I'm just adding that phrase, I'm having the thought that I'm not clever [00:28:00] enough. And just replaying that in my head, just, just like a weight lifted off me. Personally, if I just practice this, It, it just, it's, you know, you said it was like a, a menu of different techniques.

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[00:28:36] getting more distance from that thought just by using language. So that's, that's one of my personal go to techniques. Richard, how about you?

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[00:29:16] It's called Saga by Brian K. Vaughan and Fiona Staples. Beautifully illustrated, beautiful story, incredible depth to it, but there is a character in it that is a large panther like cat and all it can do is spot when one of the other characters is lying and it just says lying. And I've internalized that cat so that instead of maybe visualizing thoughts, or when I notice I'm getting thought up, I just go, um, thinking, that's just thinking.

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[00:30:24] I don't know why they're doing what they're doing. I'm judging. And that, that really frees me up to explore the situation I'm in with lots and lots of different perspectives and not be so, so judgy. So that, that's how I do it. And it's the same thing of just, breaking that Um very powerful stream of thoughts that I might get drowned in and you go.

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[00:31:07] Ross: Thanks Richard. You know how we said we're learning from each other during this process. Oh, that's amazing for me. I absolutely love that. First of all, I want to read Saga.

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[00:31:31] It's kind of like lying Cat. See, I'm very skilled at my Eartha Kitt impression.

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[00:32:01] And, it can be something as simple as that, that can allow me to pivot. in this situation and approach it completely differently. But I will say we're sharing these examples not because we're perfect, not because we are totally skilled operators in life, but because we know how to do it and it can be useful to share how you actually bring it to life.

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[00:32:44] There's no perfection here, it's just working at it once you, you have the skill. So maybe, shall we cover off a few brief pointers on what people could do from today, immediately after this, this episode.

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[00:33:22] space and choice to decide whether we want to get tangled up in that or whether we want to pursue something that's more helpful in that moment, in that context. So, for me, writing them down, as I've said, just seeing them out there on the page can be really powerful. And you might find that once you start writing down some of those thoughts, the pen just keeps going. And don't be alarmed if that happens, because that's kind of normal. And the other one I'd come back to is adding that phrase, I'm having the thought that, if you notice one of your everyday recurring unhelpful thoughts. How about you [00:34:00] Richard, what would you recommend?

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[00:34:22] But a thought is just a thought. That can work really, really well. And remembering that when you are practicing your mindful awareness, your present, moment presence, that you will notice thoughts. Learning that the noticing can be followed by a labeling of the thought, not any interference with the thought, and then followed by an intentional action.

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[00:35:08] And this is all about freeing ourselves up to explore more options, not necessarily responding to each of these thoughts.

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[00:35:34] Richard: I often get asked, when do you expect me to do this? You know, you know, the, the, that's all very well, but I'm a senior something with a busy life So here's the thing, practicing these works really well, little and often. I'm not suggesting anyone sits for an hour at a time visualizing or labeling thoughts.

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[00:36:17] You're waiting on a train, a bus, a metro. You're waiting for the news to start on TV. There's those moments in between where you could just pause, Notice what your mind is giving you. and label it. See what the thoughts are. And often you'll notice, oh, that's nonsense, or that's quite pleasant, or, hmm, interesting that I'm saying that to myself.

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[00:37:06] And I think that's, I'm answering that unasked question because it's asked so frequently.

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[00:37:19] Richard: Next time we're going to look at values and I don't want to spoil it for everyone, but why are we looking at values in this order? Well, if we're practicing diffusion. If we're not letting some quite volatile thoughts or emotions dictate our behavior, if we're not doing that, what can we use to guide our behavior?

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[00:38:03] Ross: Beautiful. I can't wait. I'm on the edge of my seat already.

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[00:38:25] Please get in touch with your feedback about what we've been discussing today. We'd love to know, is it making sense? Are you able to put it into practice? Have we fluffed any of this? Any and all feedback is really, really welcome, especially if you have your own examples. If you have your own ways of doing this that work for you, we can all learn from each other.

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[00:39:06] But for now, thank you so much for listening or watching. Ross, I'll see you next time.

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[00:39:13] auditory experience of hearing that in a kind of Eartha Kitt voice.

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[00:39:27] Richard: If I close my eyes, I can, I can see her. Um, but this is another example of treating it lightly, having a bit of fun with it rather than I'm a terrible person for having these thoughts. It's just thinking that's all this is. It's just thinking.