The Mindful Freak-Out with Dr Eric Goodman
Hi there and a very warm welcome to Season 6 Episode 12 of People Soup, it's Ross McIntosh here.
In this episode I continue my chat with Dr Eric Goodman and we dive into his new book, 'The Mindful Freak-Out - A rescue manual for being at your best when life is at its worst'. The ingredients Eric brings to people soup are a beautiful blend of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) and Compassion Focussed Therapy (CFT). Eric shares the origin story of the book and presents his accessible and useful quick start guide. We also chat about the fears, blocks and resistances to compassion and you'll find out what the acronym AFGO stands for.
For those of you who are new to People Soup - welcome - it's great to have you here - I aim to provide you with ingredients for a better work life from behavioural science and beyond. For those of you who are regular P Soupers - thanks for tuning in - we love it that you're part of our community.
There is a transcript for each episode. There is a caveat - this transcript is largely generated by Artificial Intelligence, I have corrected many errors but I won't have captured them all! You can also find the shownotes by clicking on notes then keep scrolling for all the useful links.
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Transcript
part 2
[:[00:00:06] Switched at birth
[:[00:00:07] you were switched at birth and
[:[00:00:15] boss.
[:[00:00:18] sitting here talking compassion
[:[00:00:21] You would be
[:[00:00:22] different, probably
[:[00:00:27] tattoos all over them.
[:[00:00:31] you would,
[:[00:00:34] probably a version of you that
[:[00:00:40] But
[:[00:00:41] we
[:[00:00:43] the person
[:[00:00:45] up and get off autopilot more.
[:[00:00:49] have some say in in who we can become.
[:[00:01:03] The ingredients Eric brings to People's Soup are a beautiful blend of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, ACT, and Compassion Focused Therapy, CFT. Eric shares the origin story of the book and presents his accessible and useful quick start guide. We also chat about the fears, blocks, and resistances to compassion, and you'll find out what the acronym AFGO stands for.
[:[00:02:09] For those of you who spotted that there was no episode last week, alas, I lost my voice, so I couldn't record an intro. But on form this week and recording this from the Mespel Hotel in Dublin, which I'd highly recommend.
[:[00:02:34] So Eric, I'd like to turn to your book, The Mindful Freakout, a rescue manual for being at your best when life is at its worst.
[:[00:02:51] So, let me start with my
[:[00:02:54] Eric: I just say that That's that's It's really my intention for people to do that with this book, it was written to be, somewhat of a, of a reference
[:[00:03:09] isn't, I didn't have the expectation that people will necessarily all read it page to page cover to cover. but be able to
[:[00:03:19] of start with the, um, that quick start guide and then get help immediately and then
[:[00:03:30] struggling with in particular, they can go and do a deeper dive into those skills.
[:[00:03:36] Ross: absolutely, and you've mentioned one of the features of the book. It's
[:[00:03:40] get a new phone, a new television, Eric's book, which is fabulous.
[:[00:03:45] my review and then we'll dive in a bit further. as Billy Ocean once said,
[:[00:03:57] As humans, many of us might respond to distressing [00:04:00] moments on our emotional
[:[00:04:04] blow our tops, spiral out of control, or freak out.
[:[00:04:11] manual for those who would like to explore a different response to life's challenging
[:[00:04:16] Eric brings together his decades of practice and experience
[:[00:04:24] CFT in a beautifully accessible and human way,
[:[00:04:29] workable actions when life is at its
[:[00:04:32] I found this book extremely useful and
[:[00:04:37] Thank you, Eric, for showing us that the tough can get
[:[00:04:40] in,
[:[00:04:43] compassionate way. Bravo. I'd love to know more about your creative approach. were the seeds planted
[:[00:04:53] Eric: I was toying with the idea of writing a book for people having panic attacks. It's a big part of my practice is working with people who are experiencing panic attacks for a a number of reasons. And That was kind of in the, in, in my back burner, kind of, kind of playing around with, with different, uh, concepts for that.
[:[00:05:46] airplanes, people just seeming to be driven by their threat systems.
[:[00:06:10] on the worst day I ever had in my life. I, felt a sense of compassion for people who were losing their cool.
[:[00:06:26] airplanes and, and, screaming,
[:[00:06:49] that, that they later regret.
[:[00:06:54] a, a, heated
[:[00:06:57] with a loved one.
[:[00:07:02] Because if you're having a
[:[00:07:06] what's your goal? I mean, if your goal is
[:[00:07:12] that's the worst
[:[00:07:13] do.
[:[00:07:16] it's a loved one, let's
[:[00:07:22] argument with them, that's
[:[00:07:26] loving connection with this
[:[00:07:29] that's probably not a strategy that you would, you would pick. and so, you know,
[:[00:07:34] Eric: our threat systems, they're designed to, to take us over
[:[00:07:40] like we're being possessed.
[:[00:07:51] You want your threat system to just flood you with energy and dread and just make your [00:08:00] body run
[:[00:08:04] Right. Think how maladaptive
[:[00:08:15] What's the pros of me running? What's the cons? Should I climb a tree? What's the pros? What's the cons?
[:[00:08:49] what's going on,
[:[00:08:54] problem is when it's a misperceived
[:[00:09:03] behave in primitive sorts of ways. We're going to end
[:[00:09:09] we wouldn't choose to do.
[:[00:09:12] that we regret. Now it doesn't make
[:[00:09:18] are
[:[00:09:20] but if you want
[:[00:09:26] in a way that is helpful, not harmful, and in a ways that eases your suffering
[:[00:09:36] choose how to respond in a way that's based on your values, not,
[:[00:09:42] That's what I wrote this book for.
[:[00:10:04] Eric: Yeah, so, you know, my, My thought with this book and, and, and sometimes I'll, I'll give it to clients that are struggling with things like, uh, you know, panic attacks or sometimes, you know, they're, they're struggling for whatever thoughts come to their head, like an OCD or, or, uh, with, kind of a wide variety of threats. And I'll give them that and just tell them, you know, when, when you feel like you're really struggling, just look, look, at this quick start guide because it kind of walks you through steps for how to deal with these moments in a way that you're not going to regret and, and that will likely ease your suffering more than, than, than if you're just on autopilot.
[:[00:10:55] Eric: So, You know, it's, it's, it's, it's a very much a compassion focused ACT approach that step number one is you have to get off autopilot and, you know, ACT, has been talking about this for years, but I'm not sure that they've really emphasized that this is one of the most crucial things in, in mental health, that, if we're driven on, on, on autopilot, we're locked out.
[:[00:11:52] harmful. And so you're setting this, this compassionate intention right from the
[:[00:12:04] approaches. being able to ground yourself in the moment, because when we're under threat, our minds are very often racing to the
[:[00:12:16] Like what's going to happen? What's going to happen? Well, let's come back to to right here, right now, right? Maybe you're just sitting in a chair in your office. Just feel what it feels like to sit in that chair, look around you, right? Come back to this moment here. You know, notice that you're holding your breath and, and just let that breath, come and go more naturally.
[:[00:12:46] up. Then once, once we
[:[00:12:51] choice, once we've, we've gotten off
[:[00:12:54] Turn towards what's difficult
[:[00:13:00] what's difficult, right?
[:[00:13:05] painful feelings, now people are so accustomed to running from their experience. They pull out their phone And they, start
[:[00:13:20] again and again, and again, you get worse
[:[00:13:29] human life is it's chocked full of
[:[00:13:35] good at handling them, right, because they're not going to stop. And one of the themes across
[:[00:13:47] Anxiety, anger, grief free is not an option
[:[00:13:49] time you've ever heard things about becoming anxiety free or anger free or, or, you know, free from, from grief or
[:[00:14:03] never
[:[00:14:03] an option. Humans
[:[00:14:08] of our thing.
[:[00:14:12] be
[:[00:14:15] experience
[:[00:14:19] is a
[:[00:14:23] cold water, you can go to war with that cold, and you're
[:[00:14:28] You can
[:[00:14:29] war with your feeling
[:[00:14:31] anxiety, anger, sadness,
[:[00:14:36] can take a moment, stop, and try
[:[00:14:44] really dark moment in my life.
[:[00:14:47] so you can, you
[:[00:14:50] on that part of you that lets you
[:[00:14:53] that
[:[00:15:01] And, and there's a lot of different strategies for doing that.
[:[00:15:06] some of the practical acts
[:[00:15:12] somebody cuts me off in
[:[00:15:16] thought, you know, I need to teach that person a lesson. Being able to
[:[00:15:21] that's a thought that got activated. That was,
[:[00:15:24] algorithm that, that, that got activated.
[:[00:15:26] know, pushed
[:[00:15:28] happening,
[:[00:15:34] on it if you don't choose to do so,
[:[00:15:40] then
[:[00:15:43] one of the, I think, single
[:[00:15:51] just check in with your body And see where are you
[:[00:15:59] teeth? [00:16:00] Are you hunching your shoulders? Are you balling up your
[:[00:16:03] you fidgeting with your feet? Right? All
[:[00:16:09] I don't want to feel this thing, so I'm
[:[00:16:13] But when we do that.
[:[00:16:15] further teaching our nervous
[:[00:16:18] that this moment is threatening, right?
[:[00:16:25] you're about to
[:[00:16:28] you
[:[00:16:31] your breathing. You want to,
[:[00:16:38] deal with that actual threat. But when you're doing that because you
[:[00:16:44] you're just creating more suffering for, for, for,
[:[00:16:48] good reason. And then, and then lastly, so, so we kind of get off autopilot.
[:[00:16:56] towards our
[:[00:16:57] rather than running from it.
[:[00:17:04] how do I
[:[00:17:05] like handling this situation?
[:[00:17:10] you're having a, a,
[:[00:17:14] with your partner and you
[:[00:17:17] insulting
[:[00:17:21] You feel like you want to teach them a lesson. and then you start to say, all right, well, if I
[:[00:17:33] And then that
[:[00:17:34] that values based, goal to
[:[00:17:40] Ross: wonderful, thank you. Thank you Eric. So. Listeners, if that hasn't convinced you to
[:[00:17:49] life, Eric. And I love the whole book, in case you hadn't gathered. And my two favorite chapters, the ones I've been revisiting, are chapter 7, Compassionate Minds Training, and chapter [00:18:00] 11, Choosing Your Best Self Response.
[:[00:18:10] Eric: Well, I, I spent some time trying
[:[00:18:16] just this model of integrating
[:[00:18:22] and what I've noticed
[:[00:18:24] more,
[:[00:18:26] what ACT people are doing. and even when you and I were earlier, you know, you as an ACT person,
[:[00:18:35] more and
[:[00:18:37] and and,
[:[00:18:40] really
[:[00:18:43] I happen to think compassion should be part of
[:[00:18:47] but, you know, they didn't
[:[00:18:49] for my vote on
[:[00:18:51] Nutshell summary
[:[00:18:52] people are under threat,
[:[00:18:57] simple in the moment,
[:[00:19:06] you feel,
[:[00:19:07] take wise
[:[00:19:11] be. so I think
[:[00:19:13] my clients who are most distressed, and
[:[00:19:15] are
[:[00:19:16] who are having frequent panic attacks.
[:[00:19:19] panic attack,
[:[00:19:25] sorts of, uh,
[:[00:19:30] experiencing something like panic disorder, they tend to do the worst possible
[:[00:19:36] panic attack, which is to
[:[00:19:44] yourself up over
[:[00:19:47] There's another way to approach it that is going to be more effective
[:[00:19:54] Ross: Absolutely. And there was a, there was a four letter acronym in the book [00:20:00] that I enjoyed. It tickled me. And it was AFGO.
[:[00:20:08] Ross: Yeah, absolutely.
[:[00:20:10] Eric: Yeah, this was, it's been around for a while. This was a supervisor of mine back
[:[00:20:14] grad school, gave me that acronym. So, AFGO,
[:[00:20:21] Another Freeing Growth
[:[00:20:28] Another Fucking Growth Opportunity. And, and so what that means is that when
[:[00:20:34] challenges our way.
[:[00:20:39] to
[:[00:20:41] to, grow from them doesn't mean
[:[00:20:43] like them or want them.
[:[00:20:47] ACT talks about with this sense of willingness, but the willingness for the reality, the moment to be, the reality of the moment,
[:[00:20:55] to use this
[:[00:20:57] in a way
[:[00:21:00] end up beneficial for you in the
[:[00:21:04] are having that argument
[:[00:21:11] deepen the connection
[:[00:21:14] teach
[:[00:21:17] not
[:[00:21:20] if you are Anxious, socially and you've been invited to a party
[:[00:21:28] lot of
[:[00:21:29] you can,
[:[00:21:32] it or
[:[00:21:36] up and constrict and maybe, you know,
[:[00:21:39] to what your anxiety says, which is to
[:[00:21:41] in a corner
[:[00:21:44] Or you can
[:[00:21:47] to
[:[00:21:48] look, I'm going to go and I'm going to meet three people
[:[00:21:59] worrying about what other [00:22:00] people think.
[:[00:22:05] to and
[:[00:22:09] fellow human that I can care about.
[:[00:22:15] Ross: And I used exactly that strategy recently at a networking event for psychologists in Seville I was having all sorts of thoughts that my Spanish isn't good enough
[:[00:22:28] urge to just run once I'd arrived.
[:[00:22:40] So just, just focus on that and just look around,
[:[00:22:44] the event started And
[:[00:22:47] autopilot looking at their phones. Not everyone, there were
[:[00:22:58] looking slightly wallflower like and just staring at their phones.
[:[00:23:03] I approached one
[:[00:23:05] conversation and,
[:[00:23:11] They were very kind and we had a
[:[00:23:14] So.
[:[00:23:16] fantastic. And then you can take it
[:[00:23:21] And that is,
[:[00:23:24] goes,
[:[00:23:27] to be a supporter of you.
[:[00:23:37] hard thing. Good for you. If it goes terribly, you go and, and, uh,
[:[00:23:45] and
[:[00:23:48] happen.
[:[00:23:51] And if that were to happen, you're
[:[00:24:02] really difficult, but you you, you, you got through it.
[:[00:24:09] Right. But, but a lot of
[:[00:24:12] going to get more stuck
[:[00:24:14] of beating themselves up afterwards
[:[00:24:22] You're going to do better next time.
[:[00:24:24] just isn't the case.
[:[00:24:35] Eric: so,
[:[00:24:39] is, is from, from my. clients because they're, they're the
[:[00:24:45] and, and working
[:[00:24:47] the, the exercises with
[:[00:24:53] Once they understand
[:[00:24:57] they like it and, and they find it immensely useful and, and they see how well it
[:[00:25:08] fears, blocks, and resistances to compassion. And they
[:[00:25:18] someone would do this thing,
[:[00:25:21] that typically
[:[00:25:24] a client now who, who just,
[:[00:25:29] narcissistic
[:[00:25:31] that showed them no compassion. and so
[:[00:25:38] they don't
[:[00:25:42] you've experienced it, you can. get how it is, right? You can,
[:[00:25:49] when, you know,
[:[00:25:57] than berating them. Right? [00:26:00] and if it's good for them,
[:[00:26:02] innate wisdom to understand it's good for others, understand you're no different.
[:[00:26:10] Ross: Amen. Eric, it's great
[:[00:26:12] book is getting a a positive response
[:[00:26:21] for people in the workplace. You've been so generous with
[:[00:26:25] tips with us. I wonder if there's one more you'd be willing to share as a takeaway for our listeners
[:[00:26:32] a work spin on it
[:[00:26:34] in most workplaces, there is going to be at least one person there who
[:[00:26:45] to deal with. and there's, there's the joke that, if there isn't
[:[00:26:56] difficult
[:[00:26:59] And, uh, if you
[:[00:27:02] them as the other, as
[:[00:27:07] asshole or whatever, being in
[:[00:27:11] activate a threat reaction.
[:[00:27:18] you
[:[00:27:20] wouldn't you want to
[:[00:27:22] different sort of reaction when you're around them? and, so being able
[:[00:27:29] see them as whatever
[:[00:27:35] They didn't choose it.
[:[00:27:38] to, to be difficult that that got coded into
[:[00:27:45] right?
[:[00:27:50] experiences and their genetics,
[:[00:27:56] right? Absolutely. [00:28:00] Absolutely.
[:[00:28:05] with what life coded into
[:[00:28:08] intentionally, the way
[:[00:28:12] right?
[:[00:28:13] are, right? And here, here, here you are with this
[:[00:28:19] Switched at birth
[:[00:28:19] you were switched at birth and
[:[00:28:27] boss.
[:[00:28:31] sitting here talking compassion
[:[00:28:33] You would be
[:[00:28:35] different, probably
[:[00:28:40] tattoos all over them.
[:[00:28:43] you would,
[:[00:28:46] probably a version of you that
[:[00:28:53] But
[:[00:28:53] we
[:[00:28:55] the person
[:[00:28:58] up and get off autopilot more.
[:[00:29:01] have some say in in who we can become.
[:[00:29:09] have this difficult person at work,
[:[00:29:13] to see them with
[:[00:29:16] when you see them It's not the
[:[00:29:19] system.
[:[00:29:20] getting dumped with cortisol
[:[00:29:26] person, but you're able to activate,
[:[00:29:32] going to be, uh, come with less suffering and they'll be more adaptive for you.
[:[00:29:49] Eric: That's right. Yeah. Or
[:[00:29:54] Ross: Eric, thank you so much for joining us on PeopleSoup. I really appreciate your [00:30:00] vulnerability, your generosity in sharing what you've shared and your, your wisdom. Thank you.
[:[00:30:06] Eric: Ross, thank you for having
[:[00:30:10] Ross: That's it, folks. The second part of my chat with Eric in the bag. Thanks to Eric for being such a generous and open guest. I remember to check out his book, the Mindful Freakout. You'll find the show notes for this episode at People Soup Captivate fm or wherever you get your podcasts. If you like this episode, we'd love it if you told us why.
[:[00:30:52] So please do share, subscribe, rate and review. Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic and Alex Engelberg for his vocals.
[:[00:31:05] I, have no immediate plans to come to California, but if I do, I'll certainly let you know. to show you
[:[00:31:14] Eric: Yeah, No, it, it, uh,
[:[00:31:17] that's something we, we, we have to,
[:[00:31:23] talk about how great she was.
