Flexible self concept with Dr Richard MacKinnon

July: 2024

[00:00:00] Ross: Hi there, and a very warm welcome to season 6 episode 13 of People Soup. It's Ross McIntosh here.

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[00:00:36] Ross: In this episode, I conclude my collaboration with Dr. Richard McKinnon that started way back in season 5. We're continuing our exploration of the processes of act and psychological flexibility.

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[00:01:10] For those of you who are new to PeopleSoup, welcome. It's great to have you here. We aim to provide you with the ingredients for a better work life, from behavioral science and beyond. For those of you who are regular Paysupers, thanks for tuning in again. We love it that you're part of our community. A quick scoot over to the news desk.

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[00:02:01] So, let's crack on. For now, get a brew on, and have a listen to my chat with Richard McKinnon.

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[00:02:40] A view of ourselves and try and avoid inflexibly holding on to beliefs or narratives or stories about ourselves. So that's what we're going to focus on today.

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[00:02:59] Richard: Maybe I'll start by saying what it's not.

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[00:03:02] Richard: That's often a good way to clarify new things.

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[00:03:27] And we're not trying to change our values to suit a situation, which is another sort of misinterpretation I've come across, a misunderstanding I've come across over the years. It's not changing who we are by developing this, we're changing how we. interact with those stories we tell ourselves. We change how seriously we take them or how strongly we believe them or how much attention we pay to them, how much we let them guide our behavior.

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[00:04:07] Ross: I think so. Because when I think about it, I think of, I think of the word stories and I think of the stories that we create to help us understand and relate to the world.

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[00:04:45] So, maybe that could lead us into what it's more about.

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[00:05:07] Their beliefs, their, things we've developed and held on to over time, where they're temporary or their labels that maybe don't serve us well anymore, or don't serve us well in every single context we find ourselves in. And we've mentioned that context word a lot in this series, because paying attention to the moment we're in allows us to see the context and understand it, and to take our cues from that context, rather than, these are the rules.

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[00:06:13] We might buy into these stories. We might, yeah, interact with other people in a way that doesn't represent who we would like to be, but is just in the defense of a story. And that's all that story is.

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[00:06:41] That feels like someone's. really tangled up in a story and really bought into their story and it's impacting how they're showing up. And in our preparation for this, you talked about equating our worth as a person with an aspect of our experience. Things like your annual report, what mark do you get?

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[00:07:26] And then there might be one or two that are slightly more cutting, like I just did one recently where someone said, I spoke too slowly. And you can hear the laughter in my voice there, but which one is it that I remember? That one, because it actually prodded me a bit and we're always open to feedback and thinking why it might be useful, but I tend to remember the less helpful stuff, the more negative stuff when I receive feedback.

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[00:08:03] Ross: And

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[00:08:15] And what I hear is, this was a waste of my time. This is the worst workshop I've ever attended. And this guy must never be allotted for our building again. Because it's that sort of, uh, the beliefs around being good at something and paying attention to detail and delivering well. The feedback is running contrary to that because it's inflexible.

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[00:08:38] Richard: So it could be beliefs we hold about how we are in the world or what we need to do in the world, how we need to be, what we need to have, and how we respond to literal metaphorical or perceived threats to those things can bring out. Kind of the worst in us, you know, beliefs about our, a really common one I discuss in workshops is the beliefs people hold about seniority and their identification with their level of seniority and how they might respond in a less than helpful way if they perceive that their seniority is somehow being challenged, even in the smallest of ways.

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[00:09:40] Ross: Absolutely, so we're starting to explore why this is problematic, to have a, a rigid self concept. it can oversimplify who we are. It can mean we sort of, we are a self fulfilling prophecy of who we are in that, in that rigidity.

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[00:10:00] Well, if that plays out in our behavior, then it is a self fulfilling prophecy. That's what turns out to be the case rather than what might be if I had just let it be.

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[00:10:24] And if we're holding onto that too rigidly, it means we're not open to new sources of information, new data, new external events. And we can really cling to that in a way that's, that's not healthy for us or those we lead or those around us.

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[00:11:00] But if I don't keep that up to date. And in just a couple of years, that could be problematic because I'm, I'm not noticing how that is no longer true of me or relevant to the situation. A very simple example is when I coach graduates, part of what trips them up is this very strong story of I'm new here because at some point you're no longer new.

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[00:11:47] You're not here. You're not new anymore. There's five people newer than you. Okay. And that's a very simple and benign one, if we're just not paying attention to the fact that we keep saying that to ourselves and others. It's a very [00:12:00] core element of our workplace identity, but it's out of date. It's not wrong, you know, in a legalistic sense, but it's not fresh.

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[00:12:11] Ross: Oh, I so resonate with this and I resonate with highly experienced leaders doing exactly the same thing coming in and saying, I'm new here. I'm in listening mode. I'm, I'm keen to learn, but there's a point where it tips over and people go, Can you stop saying you're new here because you're here to lead me.

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[00:12:45] Richard: This is a huge thing in this topic, because if we're quite literal, virtually everything that we could cling on to is temporary

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[00:12:54] Richard: the scheme of things.

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[00:13:14] Ross: end. So it's, it's like sometimes we can defend our self image at the cost of our connections and relationships with others.

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[00:13:32] Richard: Absolutely. It doesn't even have to be, you're, you know, you're terrible at this. You're just like everyone else, the horror, you know, and the example I often share in, in, uh, workshops is if I was saying to myself, I am the best workplace psychologist in the UK.

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[00:14:16] Or, I could say, I'm, I'm, I reject what these people are saying because I'm the best, or even, be quite, antagonistic towards people. Because, well, their very existence is a threat to this thing I'm saying about myself. That's a very extreme example. But virtually everyone I've worked with can identify with, Oh, yeah, sometimes when I meet someone, they go into that bucket of they're a threat to something I hold dear about myself.

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[00:15:10] That's not helping yourself. And, and that, you know, leads us to another element of this, which is about our ability to shift perspectives and have flexible perspectives on a situation. But when we're really bought into these stories and we're holding onto things tightly, we can only see our perspective and that limits us.

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[00:15:54] Richard: There's, there's an element to this as well, which is we don't want to be too restrictive [00:16:00] about this because it's impossible for us to about our entire identity in one go. So we do cherry pick from it. And I think it's just interesting to note, what do we cherry pick when we're talking about ourselves?

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[00:16:33] So one that I encountered very early in my career, a lot, you know, I was giving lots of feedback of personality questionnaires to senior professionals as part of, say, a leadership program or something. And that were a 360 degree feedback report and a fallback from many of these, usually men, was I wear my heart on my sleeve.

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[00:17:17] rather than, well that's my behavior and I could control that, I could change that. So that's often a, um, a way that people get their heads around this. What's the shorthand for you describing yourself to others? A lot of that's in your control and you can decide how to bring that to life. Or not. And so when we talk about, present moment awareness, you know, way, way back at the beginning of this series, being present in the moment, this is for me, the bit that goes hand in hand with that, which aspects of you are you going to bring to life now that you know, the moment you're in, how you're paying attention to now, so what does that tell you about how to navigate this, which aspects of your identity are you going to [00:18:00] use or lean into and which aspects Or you're not going to pay attention to because they're not relevant or helpful.

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[00:18:36] And at, at, at times when they get 360 feedback and it's less favorable. The attitude is, I know who said that. I'm gonna hunt them down. I exaggerate, but I'm gonna, well. It almost feels like I'm going to hunt them down and punish them and their family and their pets.

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[00:18:59] Rather than I wonder what point they're making here, I wonder what I can do with this feedback. And part of this And I think these examples really help people understand this part of this, the way I explain it is it, you are saying this feedback equals me, not this feedback refers to an element of me or a skill I could hone or an adjustment I could make.

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[00:19:55] It's not about balancing, but it's acknowledging that is something for me to work on, and there's [00:20:00] a lot more to me, rather than that feedback equals bad me, and I don't like that, because who would like that? Who would like to be told you're a bad person? But we very rarely get told we're bad people. We get feedback about specifics and that gets lost in this pro, anti, yes, no binary thinking about ourselves.

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[00:20:44] It's like putting on shoes that are two sizes too small. Rather than trying to cram new evidence and data into that, we can just be open and consider new evidence and data and spot when we might, we talked about this before, spot when we might be creating those self fulfilling prophecies and really, which is essential for us all in the workplace, begin to appreciate more the perspectives of other people.

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[00:21:33] About me, my place in the world, how the world works, you know, very simplified, maybe oversimplified and not always helpful. And the problem with it is, and this, this is almost a hand up in every workshop I've ever run. Some of these things that we say to ourselves are helpful. Yes, sometimes in some contexts.

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[00:22:26] Ross: it just so resonates with me when when perhaps when I speak to leaders and they think they need to know the detail of everything that goes on in their team and they need to be an expert in every area. And as teams expand and they get more senior. It's impossible. It's impossible. So that's okay.

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[00:23:01] Richard: So many ways we can examine this. Lots and lots of different perspectives. It is, I mean, it's core to who we are.

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[00:23:30] Ross: And I think this is part of our role in, in one to one work, but also in teams. But let's think about how we help our clients develop this skill. How do you approach it with yours?

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[00:23:50] I try and approach identity and self concept from multiple different perspectives. So for example, asking people, I, I did this in a workshop just last week [00:24:00] here in London. I have to say that the beginning, I think the group found this quite challenging, but by the end they went, Oh, okay. Light bulb moment.

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[00:24:30] You know, Sometimes there are things I wish I was more like, but I'm not always that way. So in fact, there's probably lots of exceptions to that belief, if I were to be honest with myself. And so it depends. What are we trying to say about ourselves? Are we in a court of law? Usually we're not. And so therefore, most of these, these things we believe about ourselves are open to discussion.

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[00:25:20] And that stuff is very dynamic. And it's always changing. And a visual metaphor I use a lot is chainmail, you know, like a knight of old woodware, you know, that's made up of lots and lots of tiny bits, but together they form this article. But that's like our identity. It's made up of so many small things rather than one thing.

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[00:26:07] I am this relationship. And that limits us to one tiny part of our identity. So primarily for me, it's, it's exploration. and then helping people notice how it appears in their self talk. So that they can diffuse from that when it might come between them and doing something helpful for themselves. Are you telling yourself a story to prevent yourself from doing this?

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[00:26:40] Ross: Wow. Are you paying attention to now? I love that because I think that's so Critical to become this uber noticer of our words and the words that we speak But also the words just floating around there inside our heads.

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[00:27:29] Or, I'm just the one I already mentioned, I'm just dot dot dot, insert job title there. The aim is that between us, it almost becomes a bit playful between me and a client sometimes, is getting them to hear their own words, reflecting them back sometimes, but also then they start to catch themselves. And start to realize the impact of these patterns on, on their behavior and what they do next.

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[00:28:08] Richard: you know what, sometimes I'll, I'll focus on coaching. Sometimes flexible self-concept isn't explicitly discussed at all.

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[00:28:38] I didn't let it stop me picking up the phone. Rather than me going, was not self concept or was that, you know, a passing thought that's just complex and it doesn't need to be done. But if you were just to start with, and I have seen some presentations and videos over the years when people start with, you know, the unchanging.

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[00:29:22] Ross: Absolutely agree. So, so what can get in the way of cultivating this flexible self concept.

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[00:29:46] So just like very poor goal setting, You know, how will you know when you're healthy? Well, how will you know when you're successful? You're either peddling really hard to get there, or you're fighting really hard to retain it, whatever it is. [00:30:00] So, none of us, ideally, ought to be saying, I am this temporary thing, or I am not this temporary thing, and treating it like a goal.

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[00:30:29] Rather than opinion and that fact then guide your behavior they're like You know rocks that will try not to walk on there, you know Consistently with us rather than I used to be like that, but I've changed or I've learned this skill to help me navigate that

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[00:30:58] But um, those externally sourced labels, you're getting a rating, you're getting a grade, you're getting an evaluation. And you can continue just to keep applying those throughout life, your annual report. And we can also compare ourselves with each other.

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[00:31:15] Ross: Which I think becomes more problematic.

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[00:31:26] Richard: Well, what are we comparing? I think that's the most important question. We're not comparing like for like, and that leads us to feel less.

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[00:31:38] Sometimes we think the answer is in control, when actually we are In a workplace situation, in a team, or the leader of a team, we're shutting down innovation, ideas, everything by just closing down that input from others and perspectives of others. And the same when we think we are right, that needs to be right, perhaps linked [00:32:00] to our position in the hierarchy.

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[00:32:05] Richard: Humans all have this. So, it is about, this is a non negotiable, in a sense, we've got a mind, an element of our mind is telling us about ourselves. And we can either agree, buy into it, question it, or just set it to one side while we do what's necessary or what's valued.

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[00:32:35] Richard: thought about this because we've tried to do this for each of these episodes, to be transparent. Now this isn't, I am the, you know, the bar to reach, but more to be, to be transparent.

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[00:33:16] And I'll have to sit with being no good for an appropriate amount of time, like being in mourning until I can then show my face in public again. And that's one of the toughest things for me to grapple with. But incidentally, I've also noticed. In, in the last, say, 10 years, and I did have a very strong over identification with the label psychologist.

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[00:34:00] Two, two from me that I think illustrate how I'm using it.

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[00:34:21] If they're, if they're exploring a new facet that we haven't covered in their contracting, and they're, they're saying, I wonder if that would be useful. And then I find. I used to find myself going, Oh, I could do that as well if you want. Because I got this quite fragile

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[00:34:42] Richard: Gotta keep them happy. Gotta say yes. Otherwise,

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[00:34:59] Because knowing that, that what I say, Oh, I'll do that as well. It might take me another day's work. So it's catching my stories and knowing that realization can be quite painful and uncomfortable and being with it, being aware of my words, and sometimes just zipping it just. noticing that temptation to say, Oh, I could do that.

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[00:35:39] So for those listening, how can we give practical tips to make a start on this, Richard? I

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[00:36:04] Now we're not, this isn't about removing them from your vocabulary because you'll quickly realize that's not possible. How much are you buying into them? How much are they guiding or shutting down your behavior? So watching out for the stories is a really, uh, really good starting point. Something I do with groups, uh, is to get them to reflect on how they're introducing themselves to people for the first time.

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[00:36:52] We don't introduce ourselves by saying, I'm a monster in the morning until I've had some coffee. I tend to leave things to the last minute. and I, and I never tip in restaurants. No one would introduce themselves that way. I imagine we, we want to put, you know, a good impression forward, but how many times do we end up doing this and then do we really believe that stuff or do we allow it to, I got this feedback on a workshop just to.

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[00:37:38] Is that not what you're talking about here? You're you, the stories you're telling yourself, stop me in my tracks. I thought, yeah, you know what? That, that is the root of a lot of the problems I have with form filling because I see it and the first thing I say is, I'm no good at this. Rather than, hold on, it's in my first language, I can get the answers to these questions.

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[00:38:18] Ross: Yeah, I'd encourage our listeners and viewers to become explorers of their, their self concept. To be curious and kind to themselves, because sometimes the things we find, sometimes those patterns we start to spot might be uncomfortable, might be disappointing. There are all sorts of emotions that can show up.

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[00:39:02] It makes me think of the vast skies around me in Andalusia where. That there's just sometimes just like a plane, a Spanish plane, and it just feels so huge and vast, and that's what our minds are like. One moment they're vast and clear, then the next moment the storm clouds can gather. And those storm clouds are like some of our stories.

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[00:39:49] I know my stories can impact on my capacity to explore different possibilities. I can be some become so rigid in my thinking, I don't see or appreciate [00:40:00] alternative solutions or approaches. So it's well worth doing.

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[00:40:11] of this skill set. But I do think it's made easier once we have an understanding of the other skills and the way minds operate, you know, in simple terms. So there's no perfect way of doing this, but I love the curiosity you mentioned and the compassion you mentioned, because once you start scratching the surface, you do find things you don't like that you've maybe been saying to yourself or to others.

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[00:40:41] Ross: that's it, folks. My chat with Richard on a flexible self concept in the bag. I'll create a collection of all the episodes in this series and put it in the show notes. And you'll find those show notes at People Soup Captivate fm or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[00:41:19] You can help me reach more people with the special people, soup, ingredients, stuff that could be really useful for them. So please do share, subscribe, rate, and review. Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic and Alex Engelberg for his vocals. But most of all, dear listener, thanks to you, Look after yourselves, pea soupers, I hope you enjoy your festive season, whatever that means for you, and bye for now,

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[00:41:51] Ross: Yes. Which was, which was heartwarming to bring us back to the, question.

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