Meet Dr Ryan Kemp - Director of Therapies

PART ONE

Ross: [: 00:00:00

Ryan: the first person who I got referred to see in my new job, this, the young lady came along, she had a cocaine problem and she brought her friend with her and I sat down to do the assessment and she was absolutely, in bits.

and, um, imposter syndrome, [: 00:01:00

Ross: p Supers. In this episode, you'll get to meet Dr. Ryan Kemp, who is a clinical psychologist and director of therapies at a large NHS Trust.

He is also an author and chair of the Division of Clinical Psychology England, in the British Psychological Society. In this episode, we get to know a bit more about Ryan, who shares some pivotal moments in his professional journey, including his working class roots, his initial career in financial services, and an early midlife crisis that led him to psychology.

He discusses his training and various roles in clinical settings, as well as his development of the compassionate leadership programs within his NHS trust. We also chat about his values, including practicality, learning, courage and ethics, and the impact of acceptance and commitment therapy. Or act as we know it in his life.

en about his career history, [: 00:02:00

For those of you who are new to People Soup, welcome. It's great to have you here. We aim to provide you with the ingredients for a better work life, from behavioral science and beyond. For those of you who are regular paupers, thanks for tuning in. Again, we love it that you're part of our community. Let's take a quick scoot over to the news desk.

I don't know if you've heard, but there's an A CBS UK and Republic of Ireland conference this year from the 14th to the 16th of November in Manchester. You can find all the details in the show notes and we'd love to see you there. Our theme is pollination innovation through connection. So let's crack on for now. Get a brew on and have a listen to part one of my chat with Ryan Kemp.

[: 00:03:00

Ross: Dr. Ryan Kemp, welcome to People Soup.

Ryan: Thank you, Ross. Great to be here.

Ross: Now, Ryan, you know, I have a research department and they've, they've summarized a bit about you and your background, so I'm gonna have a go at sharing that with you, but keep an ear out 'cause, 'cause they don't always get everything right. So it says here, Ryan is a clinical psychologist and experienced clinical director with a demonstrated history of working in the hospital and healthcare industry.

He's currently the director of therapies at the Central and Northwest London NHS Foundation Trust. How are we doing?

Ryan: Yeah, yeah, that's, that's pretty accurate.

Ross: Great. He trained in South Africa and London and has over 20 years of experience in a variety of mental health settings and has health clinical director roles in both mental health and physical health settings.

the chair of the Division of [: 00:04:00

He's also an associate fellow of the BPS and an honorary professor of clinical practice at Brunell, university of London. Is this all sounding correct?

Ryan: it's, it's all correct. Although, I have to say it sounds a lot more grander than it, uh, than I feel like it has been through, uh, you know, through my career. But yeah, it's quite, quite,

quite, quite humbling to, to hear all that.

Ross: Yeah. And I've got a, I've got a little bit more too,

Ryan: Oh, goodness.

Ross: So Ryan is skilled in mindfulness, clinical supervision, psychological assessment interventions, and anger management.

y of London. Ryan is also an [: 00:05:00

Ryan: It's a, it's not a word for.

n of this complex syndrome in: 2020

Now, Ryan, I've also got something that not a lot of people will know, but this is based on my personal reflections on you, that you'll go to any length to support people in the practical understanding of psychological concepts. For example, when we were co-facilitating workshops at, uh, NHS Trust where you work, I've witnessed [00:06:00] you repeating the word milk at length as in milk, milk, milk, milk, milk, milk, milk, milk, milk, milk.

To demonstrate how words can begin to lose their meaning. and I love that because those sessions we co-facilitated and compassionate leadership people really valued that you were there in the room with them. The leaders, were really, really appreciative of your investment in, in sharing with them some skills and some reflections and compassionate leadership.

Do you remember that, that that training we did when you were, you were repeating milk.

Ryan: Well,

I.

think if you'd asked me, you know, before giving me the rendition of milk, milk, milk, I might, I might have forgotten, but now I do recall it indeed. Um, yeah, and I, I think one of the things that I have, I. Really been interested in, throughout my career is, you know, psychology can be quite esoteric.

on. But if you say cognitive [: 00:07:00

So, so I'm, I'm, I'm really quite chuffed that you, um, you remembered that and picked that out. Thank you.

Ross: Yeah, and I think everyone remembered that. And I remember the feedback from those sessions too, as I've said, people saying that they loved it, that Ryan took the time to, to co-facilitator quite a, a hefty training program for the benefit of them developing skills. So, so it's, it's great to to know that impact.

Ryan: thanks. And I could say a bit more about that a bit later when we talk about, um, some of the compassionate leadership training we're doing today, which, speaks to that, that sentiment you just shared, but let's leave that for a bit later. I.

Ross: Okay. So Ryan, I've [: 00:08:00

Didn't set out to be a psychologist

Ryan: Well, I think, I think the first thing I'd like to say is that, um, I didn't set out when I left school to become a psychologist. It was, somewhat of a surprise to me and to many members of my family. Um, I, I grew up, I guess, in a quite working class family. No one in my family had ever acquired even a high school qualification.

around education just 'cause [: 00:09:00

And so I, I guess I grew up with this, uh, determination that I was going to get educated and that I was going to, I guess have a, have a, you know, a more stable, safer, financially secure life than my parents did. And, um, and so I, you know, I was, I was driven by kind of value that was one of my values is I wanted that security.

Ross: Hmm.

Business degree and financial services

Ryan: And so I left school wanting to go and work in financial services. I did a business degree. It was only a few years later when I was working that I suddenly realized that. Although I could do it. And it was, it was fine. It was, my career was progressing, but I was,

Something missing

ouldn't imagine my life like [: 00:10:00

you know, so I, I went through a real patch of, I was, like I say, say I had my midlife crisis in my twenties, but I really just spent time trying to work out who I was. and that's really been an important part of my journey in a way that I've, I'm constantly thinking and reflecting on who I am and, and what would, give me, you know, give me pleasure, but also kind of stimulation. and that ultimately led to deciding to become a psychologist without knowing anything about how to actually do it, um,

in the first place. So that was, uh. And it shocked my family. and, um, some people just thought I was, um, losing it.

Ross: So, so you were, you were led by this strong value to, to be something different and to have that security, which, which you were aware that your parents didn't always have, which took you into that financial services. Hmm.

Ryan: look, I was just sort of good at maths.

did, um, we did sort of like [: 00:11:00

It was too easy. I wanted a challenge. I wanted to wake up and, and, um, be slightly nervous about the day I wanted to, you know, Think, how am I, how am I gonna solve this problem? So, and what I've discovered about myself over time is that I love solving problems. So, you know, if, if I'm not, um, if I'm not working or whatever, I'm, I'm doing puzzles and, playing kind of, you know, quite, um, intellectually challenging, you know, uh, games and things like,

that's, that's what I like.

So I, I wanted to find a career that I thought would bring that, and I've, and I very happily, I think I did

Ross: So what, what were the actions you took when you thought, right, I want to study psychology, be a psychologist. What were, what were the next steps?

viously I just did a bit of, [: 00:12:00

But it turned out that certainly I went into clinical psychology that it, that wasn't enough, that, uh, hundreds of people would apply for just a handful of, you know, training positions. but I was well on my way to, you know, getting to, you know, almost at that point before I realized that. And, um, again, you know, I obviously got through that, but I think, um, I was probably, you know, just sort of, I just got going before I knew exactly, what I should do.

s and, you know, polish up a [: 00:13:00

So, ended up doing all sorts of things in that, in that time. yeah. And then, um, qualified in, in South Africa and, um, because my, my, folks were from, you know, from England, as I said, um, I decided I'd come out here to, to the uk, um, do some further training, and then probably go back to South Africa and, and have a practice there.

eople, working class people, [: 00:14:00

And that's usually middle class people who have that. So, so working class people and marginalized groups just don't really get much by the way of help. I just loved that about the NHS and I stumbled into a, a, an addictions job wasn't a. A, a career path I was looking for just happened. I, I actually applied for another job in the NHS and I didn't get it, but I said, how about you didn't get that job right, but how about this job?

And I thought, well, okay, I'll give it a bash again, probably, you know, setting off before I'd really thought about it. But, um, I was very lucky. I, I worked in a fantastic team. The first team I worked in was really amazing, you know, incredible people, but well organized. And, um, I just, uh, yeah, so I got really interested in addiction.

e reasons for that, personal [: 00:15:00

So I was, I spent years surrounded by gamblers. got to know them. So I think, um, I think I was sort of well prepared for it. I just didn't know I was until I'd

actually got going. and so, yeah, and so that was basically this first 14 years of my career. Were just done doing that and I enjoyed it. I had some incredible opportunities to do some really interesting work.

hings took a turn around, uh,: 2014

whistle stop to her.

ated by that reflection that [: 00:16:00

Ryan: Yeah, I look, I mean, I didn't, I didn't know that straight away,

First person referred to see - imposterism

Ryan: you know what I mean? And, um, I'll often tell young psychologists the story, but the first person who I got referred to see in my new job, this, the young lady came along, she had a cocaine problem and she brought her friend with her and I sat down to do the assessment and she was absolutely, in bits.

what I'm gonna do now. I was [: 00:17:00

I can't do this work. I, what, how have I got to this point?

I, Anyway, I managed to get through that moment. I dunno what I said. Probably something like, well, we'll, we'll give it some thought and we'll,

y to keep learning. In fact, [: 00:18:00

learn a few more things. Get your confidence up. Just keep going.

Ross: Yeah. I love that stance, Ryan, of we're never the finished article. Anyone working in a, in a profession where you're working either one-to-one or one to groups with other human beings, I always liken it to kind of tails of the unexpected. There's, there's always gonna be things that happen where you're like, oh, my word,

I've no idea how I'm going to respond to this, or what the heck I'm gonna do.

Ryan: I think when I look back, it's often those moments that have been the most instructive. The moments when I haven't found it easy. I haven't, you know, um. just had the easy answer, the answers right there in front of me.

those have been the things I've learned the most from because they

hat I have to, you know, get [: 00:19:00

wasn't like I was, um, just thrown in naively. But I guess once, the enormity of it, entered my head, I, I, you know, it, it started to affect me. And, um, so I met with my, the service director I was gonna work with. We would be the, the sort of. The pairing, the directors who would run this, uh, this work. And, um, and he said to me, you know, how are you feeling? And I said, well, I'm not, I'm not sure. I, I feel quite so confident. And he said, well, what are you good at? I don't know why, but I said, well, I'm good at doing audits, which is true, but honestly was the last thing I really should be thinking in that moment.

But [: 00:20:00

Find that one thing you really feel confident about and just have that in the, at the forefront of, of your mind. And the other stuff will come along in due course.

Ross: Yeah. Really interesting question for your, for your colleague to ask that.

Ryan: I was

eally, he helped me so much. [: 00:21:00

that was, that was fantastic. I, it was a tough few years 'cause we had some difficult things to do, but I look back on them very fondly.

I learned a lot in that, in that period.

Ross: Just a couple of things I want to reflect on, and I think one of them is your motivation to take action, which I, I've witnessed, I think I've witnessed because in the pandemic. Myself and one of your colleagues at the time, Helen Sinclair, we were developing the compassionate leadership training and we were presenting it back to you and it wasn't a perfectly formed, coherent program and we were also ready to deliver it.

We could have spent [: 00:22:00

And I think, I wonder if that's something you reflect on in your, in your current role or previous roles that what your role modeling for the people around you.

Ryan: know that role modeling is one of the most important ways that people learn. I. I will be honest. I'm not always sure. I'm, you know, and I know that I'm role modeling. In other words, I'm, and I'm not setting out to do that deliberately. I do think it's, um, it's it's really important for leaders to recognize that the way they conduct themselves will empower people to, to act in the same way.

contemporary politics, don't [: 00:23:00

I'm, I'm much more inclined to do that than to, I. Spend a long time trying to perfect every slide and, you know, write very detailed scripts, et cetera. Because I think when you, when you actually deliver stuff to say to learners through, through some sort of course, you'll get feedback from them, you know, feedback they give you directly because they're fill in a form or something, or they'll tell you, but also just the way they interact with you. So if you are, if you're delivering something that's positive, you'll see it on their faces, you'll see it in the way they, you know, they interact in the, either in the breakout sessions or in the, you know, the plenaries that we might have. And then, you know, whether you are delivering something that's working or not, and then you modify it the next time. And that's certainly been the, you know, the, the, the current version of our compassionate leadership course. We, we do that. We, we track every single session. We get feedback, [00:25:00] and then at the end of the program, we, we look at the whole program. and think about the balance. So it's a constant, it's a constant challenge to ourselves and, and, um, a learning process as well.

But yeah. But I have a bias towards action. That is definitely,

definitely true.

Compassionate leadership programme

Ross: And we're, we're gonna just sneak into the area of compassionate leadership, but I'm curious about how it's evolved, the program. 'cause me and Helen started out, and then I was working with, with you, uh, and delivering the program. How, how has it evolved since then? N

Ryan: So, just to give the listeners some context, so this was obviously during, uh, early bit of the pandemic,

and although I have to be fair, I think we started thinking about a, a leadership course before the pandemic started, but it, we were still very, you know, I think, I think it was like the January that the pandemic started in the march.

at we realized, early in the [: 00:26:00

And there's gonna be rapid change. It's, it is gonna be tough, so let's, let's get something done. And Helen was very keen and is keen on, you know, acceptance and commitment therapy and was keen that we do something in that way. And she, she connected me to you and that obviously is your specialty too. So, so that's what we went with. And I'll be honest, I mean, although I was quite confident. With act I wasn't as confident in what is leadership and how do we deliver leadership in this, in this context? Well, mostly because we'd never been in a pandemic in

w you do it. So we delivered [: 00:27:00

Ross: Yeah.

Ryan: And then once, you know, we'd done that for a while and then I guess, I guess we, you know, the pandemic kind of cemented down a bit and we went, we went back to thinking, well, what do we really wanna deliver, for healthcare leaders in our organization?

And so we had a bit more, a bit more time to reflect, think about that, think about what we need to do going forward. And I guess we got a little more grander at that stage, if I'm quite honest. So we, we had a group of us looking at it and looking at the literature, looking at what, you know, modern, profit making organizations were doing around leadership, and, um, we, we designed a program that was gonna be a 24 days long.

So you, you could imagine that,

hours, hundreds of hours. [: 00:28:00

And it has. I'm pretty much sure all those elements that we had in the early program, but we just added more things in. So, So, I, I guess some of it would wouldn't be stuff we did at that stage would be things like just management training, you know, like how do you, how do you deal with an HR situation? How do you look at your budget and understand your budget? How do you plan the composition of your team? How do you think about performance, measuring performance and improving performance? So using quality improvement methodologies for that. So it was, it was, it was broader, but it also had that [00:29:00] self-compassion component that was in our original

program. And in fact, we teach self-compassion as the first thing in the program.

So it's, it's premised on the fact that if you can't be compassionate to yourself. You cannot be compassionate to your staff and they can't then be compassionate to the patients and service users that they're there to serve. so we still have self-Compassion Dead Center in the program and it's, it's really interesting that that shocks a lot of people. They think

that the first thing they're gonna be taught is, you know how to get results or, you know, this sort of like very performance driven agenda. And they're quite surprised that it's not that, that we actually, we as leaders care about them and that, that they are strong enough, equipped enough, supported enough to actually be able to deliver what is a really tough job to be a healthcare leader.

Ross: Thank you. It's, [: 00:30:00

now something more substantial and with monthly sessions. It sounds great. Now as I've been talking, I've been thinking about your values. You've already shared some of your values and I see a strong value in practicality, in in learning.

I'm also, I dunno how you'd describe it, but, but being of service is, is that, how would you describe that value if you recognize it?

Ryan: I think, you know, going back to what I was saying earlier about, um, you know, growing up, et cetera, I think it goes to this sort of idea. I think it's a, it is a sort of compassion psychology idea that when you're in a context that is precarious or, where fear is a, is a big component. You tend to protect yourself.

like, uh, you know, we were [: 00:31:00

My dad worked seven days a week for years, you know, to, to keep the family,

you know, together, et cetera. And, and I think that was, that sort of affected me. But once I got beyond that and realized that wasn't really a feature of my life, I realized that actually I got the most satisfaction in helping other people and in, improving the world, making the world a better place.

And I, I actually wasn't that, I dunno, just self self orientated. You know, I, I, I, I realized that yes, obviously I want to, you know, look after myself and, you know, I don't know, have, have, have a nice job, have state, have a, a home and a a car and whatever. I mean, I'm not beyond all that stuff.

ot of, a lot of satisfaction [: 00:32:00

And so, so that, yes, that does really matter to me. Um, and I think it matters in this sense that I would now probably call it some sort of something like relational. Relational ethics or, or, or, or my relational life. You

know, it's, it matters to me that I'm in relationship with other people and, and I, I'm in relationship to the world particularly nowadays, I'm really, you know, quite vexed by, by the damage to the planet, for example.

he word i, I would use, but, [: 00:33:00

Yes, definitely.

Ross: Thank you. Because I also see, see, persistence and, and tenacity and, and courage. I see courage there, there the preparedness to, to take different steps and, and vulnerability, a preparedness to be vulnerable. I, I see. I see in you and your work. Now you mentioned with, with the, the origin story of the compassionate leadership about Helen's expertise in ACT and bringing me on board.

When did you first discover act?

Ryan: I am not a hundred percent sure, I'll be honest, but I'll, I'll give you a broad couple of

years. So when, you know, when I joined the NHS i'd, been trained in

dialectical behavior therapy [: 00:34:00

So that was a. New experience for me and an adventure for me. And, and I enjoyed it. And I guess it was a bit, it, it sort of connected the mindfulness component of DBT connected to something that I was interested in my own kind of spiritual life. So I guess, and then I started reading around and, because DBT is a program where, you know, people, don't just do DBT, well certainly in those days you didn't do C-B-D-B-T just with, with one person.

ld say somewhere in the round: 2002

therapist. I, I will do the type of work I need to do that suits that patient. But for me personally, when I'm thinking about my own life, I'm applying ACT

to me. So it's very alive for me and I, I feel I'm, I'm a walking act, example.

Ross: Wow. Wow. Thank

Ryan: you.

Ross: So Ryan, thanks for sharing some insights into your, your career path to date. And I'd like to ask if you have any advice for your younger self. Looking back to your younger self at school, what advice might you give Ryan back then?

. Time as a young person and [: 00:37:00

Just trust yourself, stick with it and it'll, it'll work out

Ross: thank you. And there's a, there's a, a well-known people soup question. Ryan, I'm gonna ask you for your song choice. This would be the song to announce your arrival in a room, not forever, but just maybe for the next two or three months. But it would play when you entered your workplace. You would play when you went to the supermarket.

It would play when you came into your own home.

Ryan: Well, I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go for, um, the Arctic Monkeys. I bet you look good on the dance floor. I'm gonna choose that because I love as, as a song opening. It's one of the best starts to a song 'cause it has a really long guitar solo to start the song that's very unusual for pop rock songs.

[: 00:38:00

Let's make a statement of intent and, and get going. But I'd like to add that was, this is one of been the hardest thing to choose a song of all the preparation for this because I I absolutely love music. Um, and I spent ages trying to decide which song to choose. I wanted to, to reflect me, but, but this whole thing about, you know, stepping into a room and the song and the music goes on.

Every time I thought about that, I just felt so self-conscious and thought, oh, this is ridiculous. You can't, you know, that music coming on as you walk in is ridiculous, Ryan. So, so it was hard, but, um, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna go with that one.

Ross: Love it. Thank you.

[: 00:39:00

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es. Peace supers and bye for [: 00:40:00

Ryan: I think psychology's there to be useful and to, and to change the way people feel, change, relationships make the world a better place.

So, so I'm, I'm, I'm really quite chuffed that you, um, you remembered that and picked that out. Thank you.