Compassionate Leadership with Dr Ryan Kemp

PART 2

PART TWO

[: 00:00:00

Ross: Hi there, and a very warm welcome to Season six, episode 32 of People Soup. It's Ross Macintosh here,

Ryan: If you're in a team where someone in the team is not performing or not even trying, that affects the whole team. And if the leader doesn't address those things, you lose credibility as a leader. So that is being compassionate to go and address that performance issue with that person. It is kindness to that person to point out to them, you are not performing. You are sticking out in this team. We want you to be part of the team. We want you to perform as well as everyone on the team. How can we help you get there? the first point is, I'm gonna try and help you get there, but if after I've tried to help you and your colleagues have tried to help you, if you're still not there, well then we have got, we've got really

difficult things to talk about.

ntinue my chat with Dr. Ryan [: 00:01:00

We focus in on a theme of compassionate leadership, and our conversation begins with Ryan's reflections on his unexpected transition from clinical psychologist to clinical director and what he learned over the process Initially, Ryan had no plans or ambitions to take on a leadership role, but he found himself driven by the organizational challenges he encountered and the encouragement from colleagues.

We talk about the importance of compassionate leadership, particularly in healthcare settings. Ryan highlights the emotional burden that healthcare professionals face and the need for self-compassion as a foundation for leading others. Additionally, Ryan discusses his approach to leadership training, emphasizing vulnerability, authenticity, and the significance of aligning actions with personal values.

that Ryan has written and is [: 00:02:00

For those of you who are regular pea Soupers, thanks for tuning in. Again, we love it that you're part of our community. A quick scoot over to the news desk. There is an A CBS UK and Republic of Ireland conference this year from the 14th to the 16th of November in Manchester.

You can find all the details in the show notes and we'd love to see you there. Our theme is pollination innovation through connection. So let's crack on for now. Get a brew on and have a listen to part two of my chat with Ryan Kemp.

[: 00:03:00

Ross: So Ryan, to start the second part of our conversation on compassionate leadership, I wanted to ask you for your reflections on your transition into a clinical director role from being a a consultant clinical psychologist.

Ryan: So I had early in my career, zero ambition to be any type of leader. it's not like I was against it. I just, it was just not on my agenda at all. I really wanted to be a great clinician and I spent. All my spare time reading clinical books, doing courses, I just, I'd come to London.

, I, I worked in this really [: 00:04:00

And, and so I, I, I went to another team and that was not a great team. That was a team really struggling. It wasn't the team's fault, but I think, there'd been all sorts of reasons why this team was really struggling and. it was a shock to me, and, and I realized that part of the reason why this team wasn't getting together was the leadership of that team, of which I was part, I should say,

me. I wanted the work we did [: 00:05:00

Again, much better run. I think there again, I realized that there were, there were aspects of the, of the care being delivered there. I wasn't all, all together happy about, um, which I started to challenge and ask questions about why we're doing things this way and not this way, et cetera. I'd had, you know, I'd worked in several teams now, so I was starting to get my confidence up.

rs into my career. and then, [: 00:06:00

was like a light bulb moment of maybe they're right. Maybe I can have much more impact on the, on the people that we are serving if I get this team organized and delivering than if I just work with a handful of individuals, which is largely what I was doing. So I thought, right, that's, that's what I'm gonna do. So that shifted my, the, the way I was spending my time away from doing direct clinical delivery towards trying to. Skill up other people and skill up the team as a whole in a way. Now, I'm not saying I, I, I, I made some, you know, fantastic impact and there were lots [00:07:00] of other people there. But about three years later, the person who was my sort of boss retired and um, and she encouraged me to apply for her job, which I thought was a crazy idea because, um, there were much more experienced people who could go for that job. But lots of people encouraged me and I thought, okay, well I'll give it a bash. I I'm probably not gonna get it. So, nothing to lose and I'll learn something from, from doing the application. I applied, I got the job shocked, but I got it. Um, and people said to me, well, you got it, Ryan, because you, you try to change things. You're not just trying to keep things the same and protect your profession.

e team of psychologists. and [: 00:08:00

organization as a whole. And, um, yeah, I dunno. So it's, it, if you'd have told me at the early part of my career that this is what I do, I would've, I would've, laughed just as, just 'cause it would've seemed pretty absurd. Really.

Ross: It's interesting to hear that it was the, the kind of encouragement or nudges from others that that helps you go down this path.

People don't see the potential in themselves

Ryan: Had [: 00:10:00

It's a brave decision. It's not an easy role to have. So you, you need to, you need to be encouraged.

Ross: Hmm. And why do you feel that compassionate leadership has such a part to play in, in, in healthcare leadership, particularly in NHS leadership?

Ryan: So I think healthcare is, um, is I'd, I'd call it, um, sorry, this is like tech, a bit of a geeky term now, so watch out. But I'd call it an infinite game.

t, your particular condition [: 00:11:00

But once you encounter people, you invariably realize they have so much that they, that they need and that they, um, healthcare challenges are, are quite vast. And also invariably you just learn about the lives of people and it's, it's, it's tough. It's, it's, it's, it's a burden, you know, it's an emotional burden.

And people talk about healthcare workers as, as, you know, doing emotional labor. And that's what it is, I think. But you can take on so much. And if you're good at it, you do, you, you do take on a lot. That's what makes you an excellent clinician. Of course, you should also have boundaries and try to manage your, the lines between work and not work, et cetera, et cetera.

But the truth is that, it's demanding.

Vast endeavour

icularly of healthcare, you, [: 00:12:00

gotta use it. Well, but that comes with a, with, with a, an incredible challenge. So we are making choices about what we do, but we also make choices about what we don't do. And you become quite aware of those. We can't do this stuff, and that's, that's a as, as well as a burden. It's, it's hard work. So, so I think what happens is that healthcare workers and healthcare leaders start to realize the enormity of that. And if, if for whatever reasons, personal or, or, ecological or you know, based on the environment in which they work, you can take that personally. You can [00:13:00] start to see that, that as your own failure. And then those self-critical voices can come in and start to do their work. You know, the emotions start to. Rack up and it's, you know, the potential there for people to, um, to be damaged, overwhelmed, affected by their work is, is just enormous. And, and to be honest, we see it all the time.

It's, it's there. so I think that's the way I see it, is that we start with self-compassion so that we look after ourselves, we make ourselves strong enough, and then we, we go outwards and we have compassion for those pe, those people that we work with, so that they feel they're supported and

capable of doing the work. And then obviously we extend their compassion to all those people that we work directly with or indirectly with, et cetera. So, um, yeah, so that's how I see it.

Hope that makes sense.

t does. Ryan, thank you. And [: 00:14:00

Ryan: I think it's that. I want to add a second thing.

I think this happens in a lot of industries and a lot of professions, so it's not unique to healthcare what I'm about to say, but we are generally trained to be clinicians, and at some point you get promoted to a point where you become a leader, but no one's ever trained you to be a leader. So suddenly you're having to do something that no one's prepared you for. And, and sometimes that's not the end of the world because you've had good role models and we talked about role modeling, you know, last

team that I, there was great [: 00:15:00

If you're not trained and prepared to be a leader

Ryan: And so that's a, you know, that's a problem if you're not properly trained and prepared to be a leader. You'll just do what you've seen done before, which might be good. It might not be, or might just be average, probably mostly average. So I think that's one of the things we're trying to overcome. It's not just that emotional burden stuff, but it's also just giving skills, to people to be able to think about being a leader. and you know, so obviously some of that is basic stuff, which I've already mentioned, you know, previously, which is like finance skills, HR skills, performance measuring and all that. But some of it's, um, I think quite psychological, which I've often is the things that surprise people on our course.

So we do a big section now on. How to run a team, how to think about a team,

ferent challenges, different [: 00:16:00

Tuckman framework. and for a lot of managers that, or new managers, that is mind blowing. They're like, I never knew that before.

Ryan: So this, this connects to someone we've done quite a lot of work on in the trust and, and on the course, which is psychological safety. unfortunately, some people misunderstand psychological safety.

They think it's about individuals being safe, but actually it's a, it's a group, team level phenomena and you can create it and you should, as a leader, be trying to create it at that level. I've gone, I've gone a bit sideways, Ross, sorry. But your original thing was. why teach leadership?

Well, I think those two main reasons. One to care for leaders and to give them skills to be

able to [: 00:17:00

Ross: Hmm. I think I see this in every leadership role. I think it's probably, I think it's might be universal. I. Sometimes people are put in leadership roles and just assume that by that change in title, they know what the heck

they're doing. Or they'll magically acquire these skills when the tendency can be, they'll revert to what they did successfully in their previous role because isn't that the reward?

They got the promotion. so I, I applaud what you're doing and like you say, people are having their minds blown because they are learning about stuff and it's being made practical and relatable for them to apply where they are right now. Is there any research or literature or books that have informed your, your thinking on compassionate leadership?

Ryan: Well, I think, I mean, quite a few. It's,

a challenge because, I mean, [: 00:18:00

to see what's, um, you know, relevant there and, and, and alive in that space. And I got really interested in, in systems theory about how systems work. I, I dunno that I can name a book on that. Um. yeah, probably not, but, and because I've got a sort of psychodynamic background, I've, I've, I've,

eveloped in London by people [: 00:19:00

But, But, there are people all over the world.

Ross: I remember in one of the early cohorts for Compassionate Leadership at the Trust, we gave them each a copy of Brene Brown. Was that. Dare to Lead. I think it was.

Ryan: Uh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Brene Brown. How could I have forgotten that? Yeah, I mean, beyond just that book, dare to Lead, I mean, I've probably got four or five of her books. and her podcast series is also extremely good.

Brene Brown gave permission

Ryan: And it was, I think in many ways she gave permission to many of us to be psychological, to be compassionate, and to give us the, the, vocabulary to able to express, that, way of working.

and to show that, not just an acceptable way to be a leader, but actually this works. There, There, there,

there's evidence for that. And there was a group, in the states, I think at Northwestern University that uh, done research on compassionate leadership. So that was, that was quite instructive. I dunno that there was

a [: 00:20:00

And then also just to link back to, to act, um, you know, the pro-social book as well, um, was very useful and, um, you know, packed with e evidence. And I would also say, um, Michael West has also been a particular, inspiration as well. I mean, he's very active in, NHS circles, but a couple of years ago he put out a book on compassionate leadership, which is jam packed with evidence around the various components of compassionate leadership.

So if you ever need to, um, if I ever need to, justify why I'm doing something, I can go and find the evidence

there. I don't think it's a very practical book, but it's absolutely, you know, proves the case for why compassionate leadership

is needed and works.

Ross: And maybe now's the time to reveal to the listener that you're also well written writing your, your own book on, Compassionate leadership. Can you tell us any more about that?

rk, the working title is um, [: 00:21:00

but just getting it over the line is terribly hard work, I have to say.

that it'll be out, maybe late: 2025

But yeah, it's gonna have most of those components we've talked about today. You know, thinking about self-compassion, thinking about compassion for others, psychological safety, focus on performance. I mean, one of the things I, I, I say to people who, who ask

People can tend to think that compassionate leadership is about being nice and kind

adership is just about being [: 00:22:00

And it is those things. But if that's all it is, then that's not really leadership. Leadership is there to achieve something, to allow something to happen, and therefore you have to focus in on what that thing is and aim to achieve it. If you work in a team that's really doing a great job, gets great, either, you know, satisfaction from customers or from from service users or patients. Then you feel good about yourself, it drives you to do even better work. If you're in a team where you're getting a lot of negative feedback, that is difficult. That is really difficult, and I don't think it helps to improve the work. Although as a leader, you've got to focusing on, in on

that. So for me, being a compassionate leader is not to forget about the fact that the work is there to do something and you can't forget about it.

You can't just be kind

's, that's not a, that's not [: 00:23:00

Ross: And I think that could almost be one of the barriers to introducing compassionate leadership is people say, oh, well, it's just being, just being kind to people and kind of letting them off.

Ryan: yeah, I think that is what people think. I mean, that's, I'll be honest with you, very senior leaders in our organization have said that to me. This is just, you know, soft, fluffy stuff.

Ross: yeah.

Ryan: And yeah, there is a bit of that. I'm not gonna deny it, but if that's all it is, it'll be a failure. We have to achieve the things we are there to achieve.

ilies and their communities. [: 00:24:00

And if we do that, we're gonna get good feedback, that's gonna make us feel good, and then we'll go again and we'll get better and better. So I do say to people, actually, compassionate leadership is tough. It's actually tough to do it because you have to stay focused on the outcomes. And you have to also then be, I don't know.

You, you, it can be tough to be compassionate as well. It can be, it can be hard sometimes to be compassionate to yourself. You can, it's

ct yourself and it, you have [: 00:25:00

it it can,

A team where someone is not performing

get there, but if after I've [: 00:26:00

difficult things to talk about. But I think as a leader in a situation like that, if you're seen to tackle those things, then you gain credibility and people realize that you care about them by, by focusing in on,

on those issues.

Ross: I love the way you've expressed that, Ryan. 'cause tackling those, let's take that example. The, the, the person who's being disruptive or not performing is a compassionate act. And the temptation can be for leaders, that's too difficult to address. And if you're doing that, could be viewed as a reward.

If you don't tackle it and think about the whole team, then you're rewarding this type of behavior and that can cause further damage to a team. So, absolutely agree. Compassion is

healthcare, most leaders are [: 00:27:00

and I think they, I. often are a little bit nervous to, to get into that territory of having those difficult conversations and they can be avoidant. And if we have systems that are not compassionate, so non-compassionate systems, you as an individual leader, say in a team, might not feel supported by your manager or by the, or by the organization as a whole, then you're gonna be quite nervous to go into that space of, you know, having that tricky conversation, uncomfortable conversation. So part of what empowers a, a team manager or team leader or whatever, is to know that their support structures are there to help them. So it's not just sitting in an individual manager. The ecosystem of the organization helps that person to be able to do those things.

just. A thing that a person [: 00:28:00

you know, let's face it, that's not easy.

Ross: And how, how are people responding to the compassionate leadership training? Have you got any sort of examples of sort of the, the light bulb moments or the insights people have gained?

Ryan: Well, you're probably asking the wrong person. I mean, you should be asking those. Um, I mean, we've done, we've done, we do, we, we do quite a lot of feedback, so, you know, um, so we ask all the participants to feedback. As I

rt our fifth program, in late: 2025

is we try to get the [00:29:00] leaders of the organization to be part of the program as much as possible.

So obviously they, they're grateful that I might spend some time with them, but they, they feel really affected when the chief exec turns up and says, I'm, I'm supporting this program. I'm here to support you. You know, please get the most out of it. Please prioritize this program. That means a lot to them.

And of course, we have the, the chief operating officer. The chief people

officer. You know, we, we try to get as many of the senior leaders in as well. And we also run a kind of, um, we run a learning set part. So everyone's divided into small learning sets and very senior directors, run

those learning sets.

somebody thinks that you're [: 00:30:00

a program, we want to develop the best people. We want this to be, about, a reward, about, an encouragement about setting a trajectory for people's careers. One of the other things I'll just, uh, mention as well is my speech at the beginning. We all do a little introduction, just like you did, you did with me, um, in the last session. And I specifically spend my most of my session talking about my failures, [00:31:00] mostly about all the jobs I applied for that I didn't get, which is the vast majority of the time.

OK to fail

Ryan: And a lot of people come up to me and say, that's not what I was expecting. I thought you'd tell me about how all the brilliant things you've done in your career and. I don't talk about that because there's a misapprehension that people who've got into senior jobs are just somehow destined for it, or plucked up by, you know, I don't know, some powerful people or something. It's just not true. I come from quite humble background and I've failed a lot, and it's okay to fail. It's okay not to be perfect. And in fact, your imperfections and your struggles will make you better at being a leader and a clinician down the line. So don't worry about that. Embrace that, use those stumblings to be the, you know, the pebbles that are in your shoes that you, you then take out by learning something and being better.

Add audio to intro new recording

ss: Now, peace Soopers. This [: 00:32:00

But the truth is that the journeys of most leaders have been roundabout.

They've deviated, they've gone in different directions off. Mostly they've never had an intention to get into those roles in the first place. So we wanna express that through these stories, but I think it, it highlights to people that, you know, that leaders are, leaders are human beings.

They have strengths, but they also. Can get things wrong and that it isn't, uh, you know, so some sort of ordained, passage through life that gets you into these positions and that, that can be sideways moves, sometimes even backwards moves before people, people find their place.

, I had a strong desire for. [: 00:33:00

I really think you're the person. would you consider applying? And I was like, well, that's, I'm not really an academic, you know, she's like, oh, no, we really want you. Please apply. So I applied. They didn't even shortlist me, you know, it's a, it's a crushing blow to your ego at that point. Um, mm-hmm.

and certainly, you know, in our organization, I think that's happened to me a couple of times. People encouraged me to go for it, even the person who's appointing, and then didn't give me the job. I think, and I think that's okay because I think the higher up, the sort of, pyramid you climb, the more brilliant everyone is around you.

e learning it's okay to talk [: 00:34:00

then, and then, I dunno, brush them under the carpet or something because I think they reveal, they're reveal something very human about you. Thank you. And I applaud you and your colleagues for role modeling that vulnerability at it's a lovely way of framing that compassionate leadership program and to realize that, hey, these folks haven't got it all sorted.

They didn't just go up in this linear, linear fashion. a a squiggly career path is, is more than norm than we might expect. And Ryan, what, what keeps you going in those moments of doubt?

oing things that are in line [: 00:35:00

Moves in my career that, that are aligned to that. So wherever I am, I'm actually really happy usually. And I'm not it's not like I'm desperate to move on or, make changes. So if things don't work out, that's fine. I'm, I'm happy here, just getting on, cracking on with what I'm doing right here, right now.

rship for it to be easy. And [: 00:36:00

The AI world. I mean, that's the latest thing, isn't it? But I, I don't think it's that, I think most people are clever enough to do that stuff. I think it's the faced with, Sometimes being faced with unethical behavior by your colleagues being faced with, having to make very difficult financial decisions that are gonna affect people.

You know, people might lose their jobs or have to change jobs or something. I think it's, it's sometimes letting down the people that you're there to serve. You know, like for me, in, in healthcare, you know, not delivering good enough care for, for patients. I mean, that is one of the most. Horrible things to have to get your head around.

ces are set up in a way that [: 00:37:00

But when it happens, it's, it's really hard to, to deal with. It's emotional. And I, you know, I, I have some dark emotional times sometimes I, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not trying to avoid those things, but at the same time. I just have to take, take a little time, let let the emotion settle, and then just check in with myself, you know, around, is this aligned with my values?

Am I doing the things I'm, I'm doing here to deliver on this purpose? And if, if that's right, then I just, you have to take a deep breath and, you know, go for a walk or, listen to some music or do the things that, uh, that support me. Mm-hmm. Thank you so much. I really get that strong.

how is AI going to impact on [: 00:38:00

Budget decision to make, or we've got this service evaluation to reflect on. Mm-hmm. And I feel like that was a cracking takeaway in itself, but I wondered if you had anything else to leave the p supers with maybe in terms of leadership and compassion in a healthcare setting. Any, takeaway you'd like to leave the listener with?

Well, I, I've been told that, People remember the most about what I say is the simple thing of you can't be compassionate to others if you don't start with compassion to yourself. And, in fact, somebody once wrote me an email who's, who did you quote Ryan? And to say me? so I'm sure someone else said it before me.

ly in healthcare, people are [: 00:39:00

They feel like it's their job to protect their team, but that protection, can be at their own cost. And mm-hmm. If that goes on too long and, and there's too deep, then they suffer, you know, compassion, fatigue, moral injury, burnout, et cetera, and. And then they often drag on for a long time after that, just trying to, you know, stagger on almost.

so I think taking the time to really think about what. You as a leader need. And it does. It's not, I'm talking about big stuff. I'm talking, usually it's little stuff. Just, you know, making sure you, you work reasonable hours that you, you get the physical exercise that you, you do the, the things that nourish and nurture you, that you maintain the relationships in your life.

are really important because [: 00:40:00

Performance after that. So that 30 minutes looks after me, but it also means I do better work after that. So yeah. So that'll be my takeaway. Beautiful. Thank you so much Ryan, and thanks for joining me on People Soup. It's really great to hear your reflections and I have a feeling you'll be back on in the not too distant future either talking about your book or others of your specialism.

s for this episode at People [: 00:41:00

Ross: Just search for my name. Now more than ever, you can help me reach more people with the special people, soup ingredients, stuff that could be really useful for them. So please do share, subscribe, rate, and review. Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic and Alex Engelberg for his vocals.

But most of all, dear listener, thanks to you, look after yourselves, peace supers and bye for now.

you so much again, Ryan. I'll keep you posted and um, yep. Yeah, we'll be in touch. Have a good summer in the meantime. Thanks very much, Ross. You too. Okay, cheer Ono. Ciao. Bye bye-Bye.