Meet Dr Kevin Teoh

PART ONE

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[00:00:06] Kevin: Yeah. And I think, a big part of, of the work that I believe in is talking about empowering workers, and giving them that voice to say, well, what are the issues that we're struggling with and what are solutions on the back of that? . And whether that's, like you said, through the unions, through employee representative groups, through occupational safety and health groups, I think that's quite powerful because it gives people that sense of going back to autonomy, belonging control, that they feel that they have some agency over what is going on, that they feel they have a voice, to express concern, to try and do something about it.

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[00:00:54] He's also the executive officer for the European academy of occupational health psychology.

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[00:01:10] Kevin is truly dedicated to supporting people at work and his research publications reflect that, particularly his work, supporting those in healthcare.

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[00:01:30] People supers in award-winning podcast, where we share evidence-based behavioral science in a way that's practical, accessible, and fun to help you glow to work a bit more often.

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[00:02:07] On Twitter, Lisa full kingdom said love the idea of the new podcast, Ross. Quizzical leaders are definitely needed in our current world, in the NHS. Look forward to April.

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[00:02:29] Well, thank you so much to Lisa and Sandra and to everyone who listened, rated and reviewed, talked about it with a friend, recommended the podcast with your help. We can reach more people with stuff that could be useful. But for now. Get a brew on and have a listen to part one of my chat with Kevin Tio. Dr. Kevin Teo, welcome to People Soup.

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[00:02:58] Ross: Well, I am delighted to have a legend of Burke back here with me in a virtual world,

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[00:03:10] Ross: Oh, I see what you did there, mate. the short list for awards that prove you are a legend of Berk back. But thank you very much. sweet talker, you Now Kevin, you'll be familiar. I have a, a forensic research department to dig into your details and find out a bit more about you. So I'd like to start with just telling you what they've found out about you.

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[00:03:35] Ross: Well, they don't always get everything right, so please keep your ears peeled in case they've made any bloopers. So it says here, Dr. Kevin Teo is a chartered psychologist and the program director of the MSC in organizational Psychology Birkbeck University of London. He is also the executive officer for the European Academy of Occupational Health Psychology. His primary research interests are around [00:04:00] developing healthier workplaces and the translation of research into practice policy and public dissemination. How are we doing so far?

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[00:04:11] Ross: Cool. There's a, there's a lot of long words for me here, Kevin. Um, Kevin has collaborated extensively with the European Agency for Safety and Health at work and the Society of Occupational Medicine, and has a particular interest in the working conditions and wellbeing of healthcare workers.

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[00:04:47] Ross: This ain't your first rodeo,

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[00:05:05] Ross: And finally I responded. I've always been a bit slow on the uptake, Kevin,

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[00:05:12] Ross: right? I've got down here a prolific researcher and I'm gonna try and share some titles just from last year

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[00:05:20] Ross: and I have to say there are other co-authors in these papers, but I'm not gonna read all of them out. But you know who you are because if I read all the authors out, it might just make it a little bit long.

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[00:05:55] Ross: A DELPHY study. There's more relationship between working conditions [00:06:00] and psychological distress experienced by junior doctors in the UK during the COVID 19 pandemic across sectional survey study, and I'll go with one more. the impact of national legislation on psychosocial risks on organizational action plans, psychosocial working conditions, and employee work related stress in Europe. That's just a flavor. Pea supers of the extent of Kevin's research with his learner colleagues. I'm seeing a, a relationship with healthcare. I'm seeing a relationship with wellbeing and that's what we're gonna dive into particularly in the second part of this conversation. But there's a couple more things from my research department.

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[00:06:41] Ross: You've won awards, man.

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[00:06:47] Ross: Look at, I'm hiding as a light under a bushel here. I'm gonna say just a sample of your awards. Highly cited paper. research. Excellent and shortlisted by the student union twice. Once for excellence in student experience and once for best lecturer, tutor. Now imagine those students. That's a fairly tough gig.

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[00:07:13] Kevin: Yeah, I think it's something which I'm, I'm, I'm quite happy about. a, a big part of what I do is, is teaching and, and I actually enjoy the teaching that I do at, at Berk Beck. We talk about building communities, and, and we see our students as being an important part of that. And, and therefore what we want to do is create a community where everyone can, can thrive and can learn and can challenge each other.

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[00:07:37] Ross: Yeah. And, and you do do an excellent job at creating that community. I remember when I've done a couple of, uh, lectures at Eck and it is quite a warm and welcoming atmosphere and a curious group of folks who are really interested to hear what's going on and learn more. And also I think you and Alma really created that sense of that, [00:08:00] group, that belonging.

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[00:08:17] Kevin: and it's certainly. Not easy at all. There's all cliche about those who can't do teach, but I guess that's a challenge for us to say, well, we talk about things like wellbeing and psychological safety, and community. So how can we translate that into our own programs, into our own departments? and I think that's a testament to, to my colleagues and, and also to, to our students who are important.

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[00:08:38] Ross: I think that's such an important point. Are you applying the principles of your research and your research interests? to reflect that back to the student experience and I think, wow, I've never thought of it like that. I think you do it really. Now the research department have picked up something else that not everyone might know, but it says here, Kevin runs a scout T troop. through Hampshire Scouts and my forensic research department have done a more digging on that. And they found out that you've been lobbying Gil Well Park to include three New Scout badges, which are autonomy, belonging and competence scout badges. And I think they would be legendary badges for our young people to, to work towards.

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[00:09:22] Scouts

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[00:09:50] Kevin: but I think it's about creating that space where we allow people to have, autonomy, freedom to, we talk about having a youth led program that we talk to the kids and say, what do you guys want to [00:10:00] do, belonging. So again, we talk about creating safe spaces and particularly when you, our scouts are age 10 to 14, so, um, that's lots of exploration about, you know, who I am, where do I fit in, and, but what we want to do is have a space where they can say on a Tuesday evening, they can come here and know they're gonna be accepted for who they are for whatever that they're going through.

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[00:10:37] Ross: Lovely. And were you a scout?

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[00:10:56] Kevin: later on I eventually came, came to the uk, went to university, worked, and then we moved to this town where I now live in North Hampshire. never heard of this town, um, baying Stoke. It's a lovely town. and we moved here because my wife got, got a job here, but. then I was thinking, how do I get involved in the community?

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[00:11:30] Ross: Wonderful hats. Hats off to you.

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[00:11:49] Kevin: And, um, there are lots of voluntary organizations up and down the country who are looking for people to help. So please do.

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[00:12:13] Kevin: Yeah. I, I think so. And I think the, if you talk about youngsters, you know, being a teenager, if we think back to our own periods, you know, there's lots of stuff that we went through. but I think the current environment is, is extremely difficult. we talk about the, the pressures that come with, with social media and the expectations, that are being placed on kids, and also coming out of, of the pandemic and, and the changes and the disruption that's had on home life and on on, on school life.

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[00:13:05] Kevin: but I think it's something that we, we certainly have to consider.

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[00:13:21] Kevin: there's a lot to unpack. It's actually only the last, last week I got a reminder on LinkedIn that this is my 10 year anniversary at Breck. I can't believe I've been. had brick pack for, for that long. Yeah.

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[00:13:36] Kevin: they give me a cake. I don't think anyone's noticed to be fair.

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[00:13:41] Kevin: but let's, let's see. Any of my colleagues listening and if anyone else might pick up on the hint on, on

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[00:13:49] Kevin: Yeah. but actually I always, I always reflect back and think that it's ironic that I'm working in the work in organizational space because I remember, so as I was exploring [00:14:00] what to do at university, I was looking at different things.

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[00:14:19] Not gonna do occupational or IO psych

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[00:14:35] Kevin: I always thought, I'm not gonna do io psych, industrial organizational psychology. So what's the point? and it was only my, in my last year as an undergraduate student, when I was in, in the uk the last summer, I, I sort of stumbled across an opportunity to go and work in a large law firm as a psychology intern.

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[00:15:07] Kevin: And he said, well, what can psychology do for me? And, and we ended up talking, and talked about, uh, wellbeing, in terms of recruitment, application of psychology in the workplace. yeah. And he became quite interested. He said, he gave me his card and said, email me. So I sent him an email.

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[00:15:39] Kevin: that sort was at nine to five was more like nine to 10 in the evening, kind of working environment and conditions.

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[00:15:45] Kevin: But one of the things that really challenged me and I found fascinating was the ability to apply psychology in the workplace. I think that, that, that root from thinking about we've got a problem, what can we do about it?

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[00:16:15] Kevin: I could apply and understand and study organizational psychology, from a, from a, from a different perspective, from different environment and, and, um, that there's lots of flexibility in, in being able to study individuals to support individuals. and, and that's kind of how I stumbled in, in organizational psychology.

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[00:16:52] Kevin: one in particular, I worked for quite a few months as a volunteer in a community mental health, center run by, by the mental health charity mine. It was very fulfilling. It was, it was really good. but one of the things that struck me was that actually it was so emotionally draining. And these were working with individuals who were basically trying to reintegrate back into society. And I thought if I was working in this environment and I was already feeling drained right now, how could I then train to be a clinical psychologist, and want to build a career in this? I would think I'm gonna burn out.

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[00:17:34] How do we better support individuals?

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[00:17:41] Kevin: We spent so much of our time in and around work that if we can actually create healthier working environments, we can support individuals, groups of people that hopefully fewer people reach the point where they may end up requiring, you know, specialist mental health support, tertiary level interventions, [00:18:00] basically to support individuals.

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[00:18:20] Kevin: How can we create a better working environment for, for most people, for large groups of people, that would be a lot more beneficial for, for everyone. And that's how I then kind of ended up going on, to, to eventually do a master's in occupational psychology. I went to the University of Nottingham, had a, had a, had a really good time there.

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[00:18:57] Kevin: we, we worked on projects trying to quantify the cost of stress and bullying in the workplace, which was also really, really fascinating. And then later on, Got involved some other projects, which took me to Burk as a research assistant. and when I was there, individuals while I was working, if I worked very closely with, professor Tom Cox and Dr.

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[00:19:31] Kevin: And, and I wasn't quite sure. I, I sort of always knew that probably long run I'll end up doing a PhD and, I sort of did a whole lot of applications with different psychology firms, consultancies. some I got turned down for some I got quite far in. And actually when I came to reflecting Indian, I kind of kept thinking that, I, I enjoy consultancy, but I don't think I could do it.

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[00:20:10] Ross: It sounds like you're, you're kind of a bit of a flexible explorer there, I love the way that conversation with the, the lawyer guy where you. Set out your stand quite clearly and said, well, you might be surprised what psychology has to offer, the level of boldness there, that that really speaks to your passion.

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[00:20:31] Kevin: And, and I think also with that, there was an element, because in the back of my mind. . I guess I wanted to be quite sure, to say, I've always said I'm not gonna do organizational psychology. but I, it's not fair for me to completely rule it out if I've not been willing to take an elective in it or to give it a try, you know, let's say through an internship.

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[00:21:05] Kevin: you know, how can I pick the best bits of this and, and build a career out of this? Um, and that's, I think, kind of where I've come from. And I think I've been quite fortunate that along the way I've been, you know, had the right opportunities, met the right people, um, who've supported me, me through that process really.

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[00:21:44] Kevin: Yeah, I, I, maybe perhaps that's the case, but I think if I, if I also reflect, I, I wonder one of the reasons why, possibly I, I do a lot of work with healthcare workers. So my PhD actually looked at, the working conditions of, of doctors in, in d nhs, uh, the impact on their [00:22:00] mental health, and then correspondingly the, the impact on, on patient care.

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[00:22:20] Kevin: And I think there's also something to be said about helping these individuals who are essentially helping everyone else. So who's looking after the people who, who care for us. So I think that's the perspective that, that, that often I've, I've, I've taken,

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[00:22:40] Kevin: pretty, pretty much,

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[00:22:54] Kevin: I think along the way I've, I've been quite lucky to come across, quite a lot of people who, who've, who've taken an interest, who've, looked out for me, who've, given me opportunities. And I think that that has happened both in terms of, um, from a pastor role, I suppose.

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[00:23:23] Kevin: and we've kind of come full circle because now she's a colleague of mine. and we, we often joke about that, but it's, it's wonderful that, you know, to be able to. have her as a, as a personal tutor and, and now she's a colleague and, we work on, on projects together. I, I always hold her in high esteem.

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[00:23:51] Ross: Sure, sure. Thank you. Yeah, cuz if, if you start to, to share more names, there'll be one you miss out afterwards and you go, oh shucks,

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[00:24:09] Ross: maybe that's a bonus episode. Like People Soup After Dark. Where, where Kevin talks about those who've influenced and helped him shape his career and now you are someone that other people look up to. You are a role model for others now.

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[00:24:37] Kevin: But I think particularly when it comes to research, you need individuals to, to challenge your thinking. who will encourage you, who will support you, but also it's not possible to do everything on your own. So you need people who can compliment your skillsets, and whether that is collecting data, analyzing data, writing up papers, accessing organizations, managing the politics of the different stakeholders as well.

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[00:25:17] Kevin: And, similarly, as many people have, have looked out for me, throughout my career, you know, I try and, and, and do the same, whether it's with peers or with early career researchers or, or students. so I'm always open if people want to find out more about the field or more about, PhD studies or academic studies or even, other opportunities, consultancies as well, to connect people and, and to, um, offer some advice because, you know, whenever I've, I've asked people, people have always been very generous to do so.

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[00:25:57] Ross: Oh, thank you. Yeah, I think they'll be [00:26:00] delighted to hear that, that Kevin. Yeah, it's, gosh, it is like a community of interest and I find it to be a very generous and, respectful community. I mean, the first time we met was kind of through the world of act acceptance and commitment therapy.

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[00:26:23] Kevin: Yeah, I think so. So I, if I remember correctly, we got you. In to do some sessions at broke back around, act. And it wasn't something that I was very familiar with, and I actually think maybe the first time or the second time after that I was like, I'm gonna sign up.

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[00:26:42] Ross: and, and how do you, do you find, act? do you find it's included in any of your research or

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[00:26:52] Kevin: it's something which is interesting because actually I think my perspectives as a psychologist has evolved over time. where it's, say it's strange as a psychologist to say this, but I've become less interested in the individual and more interested in the system and the organization in which that, individual is, is situated within.

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[00:27:32] Kevin: however, having said that, I, I have thought actually quite a bit about this and I think enters my, my, my world through a, through a couple of ways. One is when. , it, it's very easy to say change your working environments, you know, create healthier working environments, but sometimes as an individual, there's, there's only so much that you can do apart from finding a new job.

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[00:28:14] Kevin: But having said that, I think there's also principles of act, which maybe not explicitly, but implicitly tie in with some of the approaches that we take when we work with organizations or when we work with teams. Because really when we talk about creating healthier or better working environments, what we are, what we're talking about is saying actually, Before we even start to do anything, what is it that we are struggling with as a team or as an organization?

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[00:28:53] Kevin: And I think that that links in very, very nicely with the pillar on, on noticing. So that we need to notice what we're doing and then we need to be purposeful in terms of how we react and how we respond to that. Because the danger is that as a team, as a department, as an organization, we react or we do something for the sake of doing it, or we react in a way just because everyone else is doing it, when actually that reaction is not appropriate because we've not taken the time to stop and say, what actually is the problem?

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[00:29:25] Ross: Wow. It's, it's fascinating to hear you talk. I'm so chuffed and I having this chance to chat because you're absolutely right. Sometimes when I talk to organizations, they say, um, I can come and support people in cultivating these skills that we know can support their wellbeing, but it ain't gonna change a toxic environment.

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[00:30:14] Ross: But there's also Annie, Annie Gask, friend of mine who looked at how you can ramp up psychological flexibility to create organizational flexibility. And I think that's, that's a really interesting way forward. But

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[00:30:26] Ross: I think you're absolutely right. It's the, the soup in which people are operating. If you are, if you are just working with them to cultivate skills and they're still in that same soup, it's gonna take a, a more coherent. Intervention to really address the, the organizational issues, I

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[00:30:45] Kevin: and, and actually we in, in, in the work that some of the things that I'm interested in is actually even taking it to higher levels. So you talk about the soup, I might even take it one step further and say, well, what's the pot that is your soup sitting in? And what's the heat source that is heating your, pot as well?

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[00:31:37] Ross: it's really resonating with me. A, a more recent guest, Gabriela Brown applies psychoanalytic and systemic thinking to organizations and. I'll not reflect this as eloquently as she did, but she was talking about how the issues going on in society, things like the climate catastrophe, the energy [00:32:00] crisis, various political events, a war in Ukraine coming out of Covid, Brexit.

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[00:32:17] Kevin: Yeah. And, and I think it's, it's acknowledging that and thinking about how we respond to it. I think there's a danger also that we, we don't become helpless because sometimes, you know, an individual or a, or a group or a team might say, well, there's no point in doing anything because we can't change anything as well.

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[00:33:03] Kevin: And that's things, whether it's, I mean, originally the, the, the original paper was about return to work after sickness absence, but it's been applied to, to all sorts of, other workplace issues as well. But there's things that can be done with the individual. There's things that can be done with the group, with the leaders, with the organizations and beyond.

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[00:33:34] Kevin: Or if we can't change the political scenarios, then what we can do is actually focus on changing the group or the leaders or the individual.

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[00:33:47] Kevin: Yep. I can send you a couple things about that.

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[00:33:58] Kevin: Flexi

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[00:34:00] Ross: flexi babes. I should trademark that. Really. but I do see a lot of pressure and expectation on academics. Do you notice that just broadly in the, in the sphere of academia?

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[00:34:39] Kevin: And, and that's quite, great because you've got lots of autonomy to kind of do what, do what you. , whether that's pursuing research projects, pursuing things in say, a bit more applied with consultancy and then being involved in teaching. And if you are teaching something that you're passionate and, and that you enjoy, then, then that's a wonderful experience to, be going through.

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[00:35:22] Kevin: And challenge you to, to think about, well, why do you know what you know, and why is that important? so I think that is, that's a fantastic place to, to be in. but the backdrop of that is, Also very, very different because we talk about, increased pressure to, to get funding, increased pressure to, to publish how education is also changing, where, lots of universities are, are going through the centralization of professional services.

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[00:36:10] Kevin: and also I think in the same way that, people are very used to high quality content. you know, TikTok videos, podcasts, such as, such as, uh, you know, this fantastic one called People Soup, where, people then hold the same expectations and, and, um, have an expectation that all academics, because we are involved in production content, therefore should have expertise in producing all of that, when actually that requires a completely different skill set.

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[00:36:55] Ross: Yeah. And, I think it needs more of a voice. I think there are many, employees in the UK who are more finding that voice through. maybe through their unions and through, through taking action. And I think it reaches a tipping point where people reach a point where kind of, it can't go on.

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[00:37:46] Kevin: And that can be quite, powerful.

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[00:38:11] Ross: Kevin?

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[00:38:27] Kevin: But in terms of your question, if I had to pick one, I'll, I'll go with, um, Avicii the Knights. and yeah, I, I think it's one. Are you familiar with the song?

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[00:38:40] Kevin: All right, well, that's, that's a bit of homework. A bit of a bit of homework for you. but basically it's essentially an individual reflecting a little bit on, a conversation that he has with, with, with his father and, and talking about, you know, being a child, growing up.

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[00:39:09] Kevin: A gonna really catchy B, so you, you're always gonna want to dance and, and, and move to it. yeah. But, but it's about basically creating, creating memories and creating experiences. And I think so often we get bogged down with the day to day that we just kind of go. Uh, and we go with the flow, but we don't actually think, well, what is it actually I want to do when I think back, to my life, when I think back to five years ago, 10 years ago, you know, what, what would I have want to have done in this period?

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[00:39:56] Kevin: So I, I also think about, well, what kind of experiences do I want my son to [00:40:00] have, and what kind of examples do I want to set for him? And what messages do I have for him? And I think this is quite a, yeah. Well, I think this song hits the nail on many marks.

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[00:40:15] Kevin: Yeah. I know in previous episodes you've, you've, you've sung along, but now I can't get you to sing along because you haven't heard this song before

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[00:40:24] Kevin: I'm sure if you hear it, you'll you'll recognize it.

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[00:40:30] Ross: was like, oh, I know those lyrics

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[00:40:38] Ross: you'll

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[00:40:48] Ross: do know it. And then the beat drops. Get

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[00:40:58] Ross: You won't see me and our Kevin. Cutting shapes here. P supers.

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[00:41:25] Ross: If you like this episode of the podcast, please, could you do three things? Number one, share it with one other person. Number two, subscribe to the podcast and give us a five star review. Whatever platform you're on, and particularly if you're on Apple Podcasts, the Apple charts are really important in the podcast industry.

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[00:42:00] Ross: And on Facebook we are at People Soup Pod. thanks to Andy Klan for his Spoon Magic. And Alex Engelberg for his vocal. Most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves. Peace supers and bye for now.

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[00:42:20] Ross: you'll

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[00:42:30] Ross: do know it. And then the beat drops. Get

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