Meet Dr Carrie Hayward

Master Edit PART ONE

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[00:00:06] Carrie: One thing I remember experiencing, I ended up doing a, um, a bit of remote work. So I would see clients by telehealth from Melbourne two days a week. I would often be running late as I often am, and it felt really jarring to notice myself rush through this, you know, drop the kids off at school, rushing to get to my first client for the day. And it was like there was one moment I just kind of looked around me and realized I was the only person. That was walking fast. And not only was I the only person walking fast, but I would have a keep cup in my hand. I would make my instant coffee before I left and you didn't ever see a keep cup, but not even a takeaway cup in anybody's hand because It just wasn't a thing to take your coffee away. You sit and have your coffee before you move. And so here I was rushing through the streets with my takeaway coffee. And it was so lovely because a really common phrase that the local Zanzibaris use is poli poli, And they would say it so often in, in a really.

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[00:01:26] Ross: Peasoopers, I'd like you to meet Dr. Carrie Haywood. Carrie is a registered clinical psychologist, and a member of the Australian Psychological Society and the Australian Health Practitioner Regulation Agency.

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[00:02:10] For those of you who are new to PeopleSoup, Hi, hola, welcome to the community. For those of you who are more familiar, a very warm welcome back. Thanks for joining us again. We're an award winning podcast where we share evidence based behavioral science in a way that's practical, accessible, and fun. Our mission is to unlock workplace potential with expert perspectives from contextual behavioral science. Let's just scoot over to the news desk. My Act in the Workplace Train the Trainer program is rapidly approaching. At the end of April, folks, it's the final countdown, It's proving to be very popular, and there are still some places available. if you'd like to bring evidence based training to support well being and psychological flexibility in the organizations that you work with, then look no further.

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[00:03:14] Peace Supers, please do keep rating, subscribing, commenting, and sharing the podcast because you might have heard that the bookmarks have landed. Each review that's read out on the show will receive a couple of our freshly designed bookmarks dispatched by my dad in the global distribution center in the Northeast Powerhouse.

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[00:03:50] Dr. Carrie Haywood, welcome to people soup.

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[00:04:02] Ross: Well, I'm delighted to have you here. I'm delighted to meet you. Now, Carrie, here at PeopleSoup you probably know we have a research department who have done a bit of digging into you and your career and looked for some details and they've come up with something, but keep a keen ear out because they don't always get everything right.

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[00:04:22]

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[00:04:39] Carrie: Wow. It sounds a lot bigger than I would have anticipated.

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[00:04:52] Carrie: Mm.

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[00:05:29] Carrie's practice as a psychologist became most enriching and influential when she found and became trained in Acceptance and Commitment Therapy. Or as our listeners will know it, ACT. A framework that explains the innate struggles of the human condition to get the most meaning and vitality out of themselves and their lives.

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[00:05:52] Carrie: Oh, good. I've always, um, found it very challenging to describe ACT in a nutshell, so that's, that's [00:06:00] lovely to hear.

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[00:06:13] Carrie: I can imagine.

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[00:06:23] This is a communal space for wellness teachers to deliver their classes and events to the community. There's more. In 2016, she co founded a community fundraising event called The Mindful Walk. The event Brings the community together for a morning of mindfulness in the outdoors, which raises money for mental illness awareness and suicide prevention.

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[00:07:03] Well, it's more. The research department, it's more actually me and you because we were chatting before we started and you mentioned that you'd picked up the flute again after a few years where you haven't touched it.

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[00:07:18] years.

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[00:07:26] And this idea hatched between us P Souper's that maybe we could form a duet. Because a dear friend of mine, Rose, visited last year and brought me some reads for the oboe. So I've kind of got no excuse. So maybe this is the motivation we need to form that duet group. Obviously it will be virtual rehearsals to begin with Carrie, but who knows where we might end up.

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[00:07:52] Ross: Yeah, absolutely. So why were you motivated to pick up the flute again, Kerry?

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[00:08:23] And I just thought, wouldn't it be wonderful if we created a family ensemble or band? And there was a particular Christmas song that I love. And so the idea was for us to play as a family, which didn't quite happen. I did pick up the flute. I, um, relearned, which was challenging at first, but then suddenly everything fluttered back, which was.

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[00:08:57] Ross: I think, watch this space, Peasoopers. And can I ask, Kerry, what are the other instruments in your family ensemble?

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[00:09:19] Ross: Excellent. That's quite a combo. Yeah. Now, Kerry, I've presented a little bit about your career and some things we've found out about you. you and your endeavors. But I wonder if you could expand on that a bit. Talk about how you've got to where you've got to in your career and your life and maybe some of those pivotal moments.

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[00:09:42] Carrie: So my career as a psychologist, I sort of, I say that I fell into it in a way, although I guess you could look little bit more spiritually or deeper in terms of, of why I ended up there, but I didn't study psychology at school, which is what I [00:10:00] find interesting. Um, it was in the same stream as, um, Another subject I'd chosen, so it was a clash and it was when psychology was quite a sort of a newer subject, it hadn't been around that long in terms of secondary schooling.

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[00:10:37] So I got into that program and in my first year, yeah, I was introduced to psychology and interestingly, I decided to actually continue with, with psychology and dropped the psychophysiology. Um, mostly because I then ended up stopping universities for other reasons. And so they didn't actually offer that double, double degree at the second university.

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[00:11:54] and so I did my, my years of training. I had two years living in the [00:12:00] UK in the middle of that. which was great because it really. Consolidated. my desire to keep going to, to then continue with postgrad when I got back and I graduated in 2007 and my work placement, my final work placement for the program, I was working at a, a Melbourne hospital and in the psychology department, it was a great department.

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[00:12:25] Carrie: What they did is anybody. Within the department who did any sort of professional development training, they would. organize in staff meetings for people to then actually present on their training and sort of provide an overview. And I remember somebody had been to an ACT workshop and I had never heard of ACT.

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[00:13:11] And as I said, I remember being super confused by it, but, but what, what interests me reflecting on that now is that there was obviously something in it that really part of my interest because I think it was probably even the same year that I, um, did my first introductory workshop, which was one of Russ Harris's introductory workshops.

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[00:13:43] Ross: Wow, thank you. Thank you so much. It's great to hear. It makes me smile when you say you were super confused when you were first presented with that hexaflex. I agree. I have some colleagues who might use it [00:14:00] with organisations and I respect them enormously for doing that, but I would never contemplate it because it takes people to a very heady place, I think, a cognitive place, wanting to understand.

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[00:14:17] Carrie: mm. And I think particularly hard to teach in, in such a short time frame as well. so, but as I said, there was obviously something in it. And, and interestingly, I find with clients when I'm introducing them, or even just describing it, um, in the first instance, it's, it's, it's incredible how many people respond with, Oh, that's exactly what I'm looking for.

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[00:14:54] Ross: Yeah, maybe. Now, I noticed some, some similarities with me. I, I was accepted to study physiology at uni

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[00:15:14] Carrie: Mm,

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[00:15:19] Carrie: wow.

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[00:15:27] physiology.

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[00:15:31] Ross: So just thinking, oh, that's interesting. More than one person has done that. And, and, and no regrets there. No regrets. I found it absolutely fascinating. But you talked about being very shy, your dad observing you were very shy. If you were, with the skills you have now and the insights you have now, is there anything you'd say to your, your shy self back then?

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[00:16:19] Ross: Hmm, yeah, Do you consider yourself to be still an observer? Or you've honed those skills during your training, I guess.

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[00:16:51] And, and I, and I mean, again, it's the ability to observe. And I think the interest in observation is something shared by us all. But as you say, I think that the difference is that there is more skill trained, you know, the, the more formal training in that skill that, that we experience in this field.

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[00:17:16] Carrie: Yes.

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[00:17:24] A Place To Be

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[00:17:26] Carrie: Certainly in a clinical way we can switch it off, definitely. Maybe not in a human way.

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[00:17:33] So tell me about a place to be. I'm curious about this mindfulness and meditation studio.

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[00:18:03] We called them mindfulness programs, but it fundamentally was acceptance and commitment therapy. We just didn't call it that because, um, Most people don't necessarily know what that means. and then through that work, it was when meditation had really skyrocketed in more of a mainstream as a mainstream practice.

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[00:18:40] I needed to, yeah, find a new space for my private practice. And I thought, why not find somewhere that can have a bigger space at the same time and start running some classes and workshops from there. And. So, yeah, that's how it really came to be. And it has, it has evolved over that time. my private practice was still my main focus.

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[00:19:12] Ross: Great. And what's the drive behind you? Cause you also, you also founded the community fundraising event, the mindful walk. What's your drive to Share this more widely. Tell me about that.

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[00:19:56] and. Given how many, you know, [00:20:00] charity walks and fundraising events do exist. We thought, wouldn't it be great if we, you know, use the same concept, but rather than the race to the finish line, which a lot of these fun runs are, it's almost the opposite. Let's, let's slow everyone down. and for it to be an opportunity for, as I said, people to come together, experience. the practice of being mindful, but with each other as well. So really creating that sense of, of connection with one another. And so it was a silent walk. and then we thought, let's actually support, uh, a charity that's doing a lot of work in the mental health space. And so that was, that was, I guess, the extra, uh, component that allowed people to feel like they were.

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[00:21:19] Um, but I'm also mindful of the fact that there's a lot that exists in this charity event space. And so it's, it's, I think, very important to keep it unique and accessible as well. So we'll see where it goes.

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[00:21:46] Carrie: Very much so. And it was amazing how many people would reflect on their experience and say how hard they found it, how hard they, because a lot of people would do it with friends or family. And so there'd be work [00:22:00] walking alongside loved ones. And it's quite rare to do that. And not talk and, and the discomfort that people would experience in that silence was really fascinating.

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[00:22:16] Ross: And you said you took some of the mindfulness or ACT training to workplaces. How did you find it landed there?

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[00:22:46] You know, that's often all I can can afford, time wise more than anything. And yeah, I found that really challenging.

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[00:23:15] Carrie: wow.

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[00:23:20] Carrie: mm

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[00:23:39] Carrie: Mm

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[00:23:45] I think it was giving the entirely the wrong message about how much time this organization was willing to invest for their people. And I was also disappointed. We've since had chats about it since and I've done something longer for them,

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[00:23:58] Ross: which felt, it's [00:24:00] never perfect with organizations, I think. I was given two hours and people could volunteer to come and basically I did a taster of ACT.

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[00:24:07] Ross: And they'd also agreed to a follow up program for those who were interested, which was more based around a protocol I developed with Paul Flaxman at City Uni.

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[00:24:17] Ross: we got a, we got loads of people wanted to convert that two hour experience into a, a four session program. So much so that we had a wait, a wait list,

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[00:24:27] Ross: which showed how ACT can really resonate with people and they're curious to find out more.

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[00:24:50] Carrie: Wow.

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[00:24:53] And the CEO struck me as a slightly unusual to begin with because behind him he had, you know, one of those virtual backgrounds, he had the, he had this kind of roaring fire, but it was, it wasn't quite a modest roaring fire. It was like,

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[00:25:08] Ross: his, almost filling his screen.

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[00:25:16] Carrie: can see.

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[00:25:20] Carrie: Mmm.

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[00:25:33] And the CEO piped up and said, but we're a fast organization. We don't have time just to pause and notice

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[00:25:40] Ross: And I was gently putting it to him that, well, actually, you might notice if you did this, you'd become even more effective and collaborative and a aware as a, as a being as an organization.

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[00:25:58] Carrie: Mmm.

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[00:26:14] So people were agreeing with him. And it, it didn't turn out badly. I did get a bit of support, muted support from the HR folk, but it was,

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[00:26:25] Ross: I wasn't invited to, to deliver anything further. In fact, in fact, it was very difficult to get hold of the HR people after that, because I think they were just a bit embarrassed.

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[00:26:39] Ross: And I learned. It's, it's all learning that we can think, well, how could I present it differently? What, what avenues could I take differently for that type of organization? And, and obviously that it would have been a, difficult challenge to work with that organization, given the stance of the CEO.

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[00:26:58] Ross: So I was possibly saved from that.

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[00:27:12] Carrie: When the time's right. But yeah, I mean, I guess organizations are no different to individuals in that way in terms of their readiness. It depends on their readiness.

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[00:27:26] Carrie: Yeah. It makes it a bit easier.

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[00:27:29] Ross: Yeah. Now, now, Carrie, I want to talk to you about Zanzibar

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[00:27:40] Carrie: There's a bit of a pattern here, Ross, and in thinking about how all these things have landed for me, I think that that's quite characteristic of my nature, which is that I'm not the most, I'm not, it's not in my nature to be a planner is what I'm trying to say. So I'm quite spontaneous in the moment and so is [00:28:00] my partner.

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[00:28:25] overseas somewhere. And this was coming towards the end of, I guess, the end of, well, I think our fifth or sixth lockdown here in Melbourne during COVID. And so there was sort of many factors in that. And Zanzibar came about because we were looking at various volunteer programs. we decided to go somewhere where we could be of service.

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[00:29:11] And I think it, it grabbed our interest because it, because it's a tourist destination, it felt quite safe. it sounded really beautiful and in the end, we didn't go through a volunteer organization. A lot of the ones we were talking to aren't really equipped for families. And so we decided, let's just go for it.

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[00:29:57] And, and so I was accepting of [00:30:00] that, but at the same time I really wanted to make sure we were actually going to be of help. And so we, as I said, we found some accommodation in Zanzibar, booked a, plane, ticket for all five of us, and we landed, and everything kind of happened from there.

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[00:30:30] Ross: Wow.

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[00:30:50] You're obviously going to be quite, thoughtful about it being the right experience for them. So to not overthink it and just get there. And our mentality was if it doesn't work out, we'll leave. But it did, which was wonderful.

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[00:31:19] Carrie: Hmm.

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[00:31:24] Carrie: All

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[00:31:25] Ross: to live on a big adventure. He's Spanish and I always said, We made the decision. We sold our flat where we lived in Brighton.

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[00:31:46] Carrie: Mm.

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[00:31:49] Carrie: Mm. There you go. Overwhelmed. And I think my partner and I are similar in that, the, the feeling of being locked in. I think it really [00:32:00] helped us to go, let's just land there, see what happens. We'll try it. We'll experience it. But we're not locked in.

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[00:32:15] Carrie: Mm. A lot. Particularly once we arrived. Act came in very handy.

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[00:32:27] Carrie: We really, a big motivating factor for us was for our children in particular to experience a different way of life. So I think it was giving them that opportunity, helping to, Expose them to different culture, different experiences. And in a way, it was most Look, this probably wasn't so conscious at the time, but it was something that became quite clear to me, not, you know, quite soon after we got there.

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[00:33:02] Ross: Hmm.

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[00:33:11] Ross: Yeah. Can you unpack that a bit more, please, for the listeners?

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[00:33:38] And, uh, that was very different in Zanzibar. And it was also, you know, you're jet lagged. It was extremely hot. And I remember we walked into the accommodation we had booked and there were some things that I thought, Oh, okay, is this going to be right for us? We'd, we'd, we'd booked [00:34:00] for the first three months of being there.

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[00:34:25] And it was actually my partner that said to me, yeah, but that's not why we're here. He said, you know, we could go down the road and find, because Zanzibar is really interesting. We were, um, particularly where we were, we were, living in stontown, which is the old city of Zanzibar. And so we were living in more of a local area, but it is only 15 minutes, 20 minutes down the road where there's the tourists kind of hot, we've Hotels and more of your sort of Western experience.

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[00:35:20] But, but that's what I mean in terms of. exposing ourselves to discomfort. And, and it was twofold because it was our own. I was actually really, the kids were fine. And that's what really fascinated me that they didn't really even notice. but what I noticed over time was because there was things that obviously they then did, um, you know, that were challenging for them in starting a new school, my youngest was starting school for the first time.

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[00:36:12] It was not about throwing them in the deep end and, and obviously doing it in a really safe way as well. But I just found it so fascinating that I needed to keep noticing that it was not like that stopped coming up. That instinct didn't stop. It kept coming up. And so it required ongoing awareness really.

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[00:36:38] Carrie: That's not why we're here, yeah. Mmm.

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[00:36:44] Carrie: That's all it, all it took for me to go, Ah, yep, you're right. We're in the right place. This is where we're meant to be. Mmm.

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[00:37:13] Carrie: The other main thing that stood out to me very early on was, I guess what, what you, it's certainly I can only speak for myself, but what I had heard of these cultures in developing countries and the slowness that can often exist in the non Western world. And I was fascinated by when we would walk down, you know, again, Stone Town's this beautiful town where there's winding alleyways and we would be walking down the alleyways.

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[00:39:21] protective way almost. They would say it so often to foreigners because they notice this difference of, of the pace. And I was so fascinated by that firstly, but also you would see locals sitting for hours on end outside their homes, outside their shop fronts. epitomizing the essence of being. And, and it really, it really stood out to me also because not only was there this stillness and this presence that they embodied, I also noticed, I also realized no [00:40:00] one's, no one's on their phone that not only are they still and Not really doing anything in, in how we conceptualize doing, I guess, but there were no phones in hands.

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[00:40:38] So there were all these different components, like, that really stood out, this difference, and, as I said, how the local Zanzibaris just really embodied that essence of being.

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[00:41:14] That's,

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[00:41:34] Song Choice

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[00:41:54] And tell us a bit about why you've chosen it.

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[00:43:04] Ross: Wonderful.

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[00:43:23] You can support us and help us reach more people with this behavioral science. So.

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[00:43:32] Ross: Number one, share it with one other person. Number two, subscribe and give us a five star review, whatever platform you're on.

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[00:44:08] Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic and Alex Engelberg for his vocals. Most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves, peace supers, and bye for now.

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