Being Human with Dr Carrie Hayward

PART 2

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[00:00:06] Carrie: One of our instinctive tendencies that we, we struggle with as human beings. And this is a hardwired need and search for comfort and to move our attention from comfort towards meaning. So rather than looking for what's comfortable and even pleasurable, which is what Our mind is on the lookout for and we're hardwired to search for that.

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[00:01:10] Ross: Peasoopers, it's the second part of my chat with Dr. Carrie Haywood. Carrie is a clinical psychologist and also happens to be an adventurer, a creative, an innovator, and an author. And in this episode, we dive into Carrie's book collection called Being Human. The collection is beautifully presented into four bite-sized books titled The Lost Son, the Flower in the Pocket, the Unwanted Friend.

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[00:01:56] [00:02:00] those of you who are new to PeopleSoup, hi! Hola! Welcome to the community. For those of you who are regular P supers, welcome back. Thanks for joining us again. We're an award winning podcast where we share evidence based behavioral science in a way that's practical, accessible, and fun.

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[00:02:33] Let's just scoot over to the news desk. Reviews are in for part one of my chat with Kerry. On our WhatsApp message, a dedicated P super said, I've just listened to your first chat with Carrie Haywood. It was such a great episode. I needed to hear Polly Polly, and what are we here for so, so much. It made me cry.

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[00:03:15] What more of an incentive do you need? The first bookmarks have landed so Big G, my dad, is now preparing the next batch. For now, get a brew on and have a listen to part two of my chat with Carrie Haywood. Carrie, I'd like to talk about your book collection called Being Human, which I've read and I love, but I'd like to start with my review, if I may.

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[00:03:46] Ross: folks, Carrie hasn't heard this review,

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[00:03:49] Ross: I'll just launch into it. So, I wholeheartedly applaud this creative endeavour.

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[00:04:24] These books touched me deeply. Each volume concludes with an afterword, which brings the threads of each story together and presents practical approaches to using the ACT framework in our lives. Aside from the beautiful content,

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[00:04:41] Ross: Carrie, thank you for bringing this collection into the world. I love it.

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[00:04:52] Ross: here's a, an insight.

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[00:04:55] Carrie: Oh,

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[00:04:56] wonderful.

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[00:05:05] Carrie: Mm hmm.

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[00:05:15] And then a couple of days later I read the next one and then it started to see how they were all fitting together. And it was like, I kind of just made my heart sing. So I thought, right, I'm going to read them again because they're super readable and they really, really resonated deeply. So, so

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[00:05:34] you.

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[00:05:53] Ross: And I saw different facets the second

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[00:06:12] Carrie: There were a number of seeds with this one, um, and they, look, maybe it even goes back to, as I said, my confusion, uh, that initially. initially came up when I was first introduced to the model. I, really wanted to find a way to bring all the concepts together, the teachings together, in a very simple way.

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[00:07:06] Who moved my cheese?

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[00:07:18] Yeah.

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[00:07:32] I don't even know how it got into the house. I still lived at home with my parents. And. I picked it up and I read it in one sitting and there was one teaching that has stayed with me ever since. And that was a question that is asked in the book, which is what would you do if you weren't afraid? And it stayed with me.

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[00:08:17] I'm digressing, but my point being, um, it stayed with me and, and I guess the other similarity with this book is it's, it's metaphor. And so it's this beautiful little story about four mice and. These mice dealing with unpredictability and change and how each. of, of, yeah, each mouse has a different reaction to that. And so that really contributed to this, this concept of writing in story a metaphor with the idea to be able to read each book in one sitting. And even if it was just one takeaway that people. really connected to and, and we're able to bring it to, to their lives. I think the, the idea of also writing story was inspired by Russ Harris's Demons on a Boat metaphor. Um, it's one I often read to clients or I'll have the client read it, but often I do read it to them in sessions. So I. Invite them to just listen and, and absorb. And there was very early in my career, there was one. young person I was working with and I read it to them and it didn't, I don't remember at the time there being a huge aha moment, but what was fascinating when I finished working with this client, they wrote me a letter and used the imagery and teachings from the demons on a boat [00:10:00] Metaphor that Russ created and interweave this in their reflection on, on how, um, on how they feel like they had transformed and, um, what had shifted for them.

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[00:10:41] Ross: I, I'm a big fan of metaphor and, and storytelling. I think it's almost counter cultural to a self help book, where people, people sometimes go to a self help book saying, right, I want some answers. I want some quick answers that I can immediately apply and boom, then I can crack on. They're sometimes not willing to take that pause and just embrace a story. And I think this is what sets yours. Apart from a, what we might call a traditional self help book. That, that power of the, the storytelling and the metaphor.

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[00:11:22] Carrie: question. So it. It came before, the first book was actually already published, the first book in the series. And that was self published in a way, and I started to write. Books two and even three during, our experience in Zanzibar and then had the, um, the fortune of, of finding a publisher to, who actually then took on the whole series.

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[00:12:16] Hmm.

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[00:12:21] Hmm,

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[00:13:08] And so It required some discipline, I think, in carving out that time, but it was wonderful because if I had spare time, I saw it as almost a form of, recreation, of relaxation rather than work. And I think that was, that was also helped by not having any huge deadlines with it, at least not initially, which meant it was quite a drawn out process from the very first book in its, original form, but that was okay. And it meant that I still saw it that way and still experienced it that way rather than as a task, as I said. so yeah, I really enjoyed it.

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[00:14:07] Carrie: Yeah. That's interesting.

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[00:14:09] Ross: I can see this book being of real use and value to people in the workplace, but how could we work on presenting it to people in the workplace? Any, any thoughts on

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[00:14:19] Carrie: Hmm. That's an interesting one. Um, particularly as I say that it's not even, you wouldn't necessarily look at these books and say them as. the traditional self help book. I think they reach people in a way where I had this, in terms of how they're presented, I had this vision of them being on the counter in a bookstore and somebody is in the process of purchasing whatever they are.

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[00:15:43] Um, so even if they were presented in that way, almost as a sort of, you a takeaway for people to read, creating a foundation for what might then follow in terms of any training or workplace activity.

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[00:16:05] I guess training could also be structured around it. The, the being human methodology. Would you, could you unpack that for us? The being human methodology, the, the, the

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[00:16:17] The Being Human Framework - some audiogram potential here

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[00:17:15] And so the being human method, as I said, is, is the practice of, of noticing our innate struggle with those unwanted experiences and to be able to normalize and create that acceptance and compassion for what we are experiencing internally, namely our emotional experience and also our thinking experience. And the. The practice of noticing that allows us choice to come back to our beingness and the beingness is really that connection to in ACT terminology, our values, our core values in more layman terminology. It's [00:18:00] fundamentally the person we want to be in the life we want to live. And so, very simply. By noticing our humanness and creating normalization and acceptance around that, we are able to then have choice and reconnection to our beingness, the person we want to be and how we want to live in terms of what matters.

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[00:18:24] landing?

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[00:19:56] and then with clients it's, I'm finding it's, [00:20:00] it's. a way, and this is, you know, this is what I, I'd really hope for the books was to just bring these teachings to life

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[00:20:09] as you said, it's not because it's metaphor. They're not necessarily connecting to the actual content of the characters experience, but certainly the process and, and yeah, and so it's, it's, I guess, helping. them to really, really consolidate these learnings. And, and I haven't had this experience yet, but coming back to my own experience with who moved my cheese and the The takeaway that just stayed with me and I still implement and use to this day, I'm hoping time to come. I hear people, um, I would say that something I've lived by both professional, well, I think probably mostly professionally for a long time is the power of small and the power in small. And what I mean by that is Something very simple people are able to connect to. and really implement can be life changing in any shape or form.

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[00:21:42] What was important for me was to have the intimacy and the personalized experience. And I remember saying to my business partner at the time, if it, if it helps one person, then I'll be happy. And, and I think I've tried

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[00:21:57] And, and have really [00:22:00] maintained that way of thinking about the books as well.

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[00:22:12] if

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[00:22:15] Ross: I, I loved The Unwanted Friend and I loved The Dragonfly in the Haze.

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[00:22:28] Now, I'm curious about the writing process, just nipping back to that when you said it was quite it was quite a relaxing experience. Were there ever any moments where you thought, oh, can I continue with this? Were there ever any of that unhelpful stuff that got in the way of it?

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[00:22:43] Carrie: Not with the writing process. Um, as I said, I think going at my own pace and seeing it as this vehicle for that creativity and doing something that really mattered to me. Yeah, there was nothing that really got in the way with that. I think the biggest thing that has threatened, to get in the way for me is, step, which is getting the books out there.

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[00:23:10] Carrie: And it's interesting. I often laugh with, with people when I, when I tell them about the fact that part of what felt comfortable to me about writing a book was I falsely believed that I could just hide behind the book. Here was a way to be able to share some knowledge and some teachings. And what I really cared about in that way, anonymously, and I could hide behind the book.

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[00:23:58] challenge for

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[00:24:00] Yeah. You have to go on Yeah. Not these, I like Ross because it's just you and I. and your pea supers, of course. But

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[00:24:10]

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[00:24:11] So, Carrie, are there any other projects in the pipeline

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[00:24:16] Carrie: There are actually another project that's been at a more snail pace is, um, a little animation I'm creating with Lizzie, the illustrator of the books. And, um, A designer that I'm working with who's, who's, dealing with the animation side of things. And the animation is really focused on the nature of thinking.

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[00:25:32] So, we'll see where that goes.

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[00:25:35] Carrie: Yeah.

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[00:25:37] Carrie: Oh, about your next book.

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[00:25:41] Carrie: Wonderful.

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[00:25:42] Ross: So Kerry, is there a brief take away for the PSupers that might find useful in terms of their life and being an adult in the workplace?

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[00:26:00] And again, it's something that feels quite simple, but really addresses One of our instinctive tendencies that we, we struggle with as human beings. And this is a hardwired need and search for comfort and to move our attention from comfort towards meaning. So rather than looking for what's comfortable and even pleasurable, which is what Our mind is on the lookout for and we're hardwired to search for that.

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[00:28:37] They're all outcomes. And then the emotional experience we have around that is another outcome. So how we react internally to what's going on around us is another outcome. Again, one that we can't fully and directly control, yet we're wired to try and control it. And even as I said, and operating in the assumption that it's our job to control it.

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[00:29:38] Thank you. In the workplace and maybe that even filters into the rest of our lives within ourselves. And if we can actually move our attention instead to what's meaningful, rather than what's comfortable, particularly when That discomfort has come from experiences or situations that we cannot [00:30:00] control. And maybe, in our experiences at work, they can't always be comfortable because we can't always control those outcomes.

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[00:30:36] It's not wired to care about what's meaningful. It's wired to keep us alive. For the mind, comfort is an indication that we're safe. There's a better chance of survival if we're, if we're safe. So that's where the mind naturally leans towards, we need this comfort. Therefore, I need to be out of control to ensure comfort. And so we, our mind's not going to do it for us. And so we need to consciously be able to move our attention and lean towards meaningful rather than comfort.

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[00:31:11] Ross: Whoa, I love the way you present that to us. That's really powerful Kerry, thank you. The mind's not going to do it for us. How right that is. And if we can just notice the meaning. Wow. Carrie, thank you for that takeaway. It just really, really resonates. And particularly for the workplace, thinking about we can be so focused on other things and imagine we can control other things.

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[00:31:39] Ross: Beautiful. Carrie, thank you so much for joining me on PeopleSoup. It's been an absolute joy to, to hear you speak about your projects and your books, and thank you for being such a role model for us all as well. It's really

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[00:31:56] to chat to you.

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[00:32:21] Um, it's been a real pleasure and I feel like I could chat with you for hours. So thank you so much for, for having me Russ.

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[00:32:31] That's it, peace supers, part two of my chat with Carrie in the bag.

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[00:32:56] Ross: Number one, share it with one other person. Number two, subscribe and give us a five star review, whatever platform you're on.

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[00:33:32] Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic and Alex Engelberg for his vocals. Most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves, peace supers, and bye for now.

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[00:33:48] so it was a pleasure in, in itself just to be able to meet you, put a face to the name and, and you're doing wonders with your podcast. So congratulations.

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