Imposter No More with Dr Jill Stoddard

Jill Part 2

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[00:00:00] Hi there, and a very warm welcome to Season 5, Episode 31 of PeopleSoup. It's Ross McIntosh here.

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[00:00:43] As a syndrome, I don't think that's a coincidence. I think there's sexism involved in that. And of course, if it occurs in 70 percent of people and a syndrome is a disease or a disorder or a pathology, then it just simply can't be. A syndrome, right? Like it just can't. It's normal.

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[00:01:17] in this episode we start with my review. And then you'll hear about how the idea for writing the book recei, Emerged after a well received conference panel discussion.

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[00:01:44] Recommendations for future research, the dedication in the book to Leanne Harris, and Jill's brilliant

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[00:02:01] PeopleSupers is an award winning podcast where we share evidence based behavioral science in a way that's practical, accessible, and fun. Our mission is to unlock workplace potential. P Supers, you might notice in those last three words that new description.

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[00:02:33] You'll find the link in the show notes and early bird rates are still available. I developed this training protocol alongside Dr. Paul Flexman at City, University of London, and I've delivered it to hundreds of workplace participants across all sectors.

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[00:02:55] Just listened to this Ross. Loads in it. But what stands out for me most is when someone like Jill with powerful labels like TEDx speaker, etc Shares her imposter thoughts. Then the conversation becomes totally relatable and real for me anyhow and probably most people.

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[00:03:33] If you make some noise about the podcast and our guests, we'll reach more people with stuff that could be useful. And P Supers, you might have noticed a slight difference in the description of the podcast.

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[00:04:29] I'd like to dive into the book.

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[00:04:32] it. Dive away.

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[00:04:35] Okay. Oh, I Aww.

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[00:04:39] And, peace supers, Jill hasn't heard this review yet, so... So here we go, it's fresh off the press. I wholeheartedly love this book. It's written with warmth, expertise, humanity and care. I knew this book was special when I started highlighting parts I wanted to return to or reflect on. And then I noticed that there were highlights on every page of my PDF advanced copy. Two examples of features I loved, and there were many, but I just thought I'd share two examples of things that touched me.

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[00:05:31] And then there was also a bit I loved, the way you set out the choices we have in life, which you call beautifully the points of possibility, or POPs. It just makes it so memorable, so the question is, what would make our lives pop in any given context? And the way Jill unpacks this to make it relevant and practical is outstanding.

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[00:06:11] You present us with vignettes from friends, people in the public eye, from Michelle Obama to Eminem and your own life. I also applaud you for making a difference and for living your life out loud. You truly bring to life your approach through your role modeling and your writing, and. To top it all, I also consider this book to be a fantastic introduction to act.

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[00:06:35] Thank you. I'm holding back tears. I haven't, well, like I said, you know, Kevin was one of the first reviewers. So I, it's like that, thank you so much.

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[00:06:44] That's really meaningful to me to hear such positive feedback. It was a labor of love for sure and... I'm sure as your, you know, your PSupers probably can relate, I think anytime you put something creative out into the world, it's so vulnerable, right?

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[00:07:12] thank

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[00:07:17] of

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[00:07:20] three days.

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[00:07:21] days. So let's, let's rewind, Jill. , you talked about when you were going to do your PhD, you noticed the signs of what people popularly call imposter syndrome. when were the seeds of the book planted? Was it then or was it later?

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[00:07:50] Panel Discussion at ACBS Conference

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[00:07:59] It's [00:08:00] a mouthful. And I was the panel chair and I had. four amazing women come onto the panel to basically share their experiences with imposterism. So I did the introduction of this is the definition and the prevalence and the subtypes. And then they all told their personal stories The more I started talking about this, the more surprised I was by how common it was, especially among high achieving people. And I thought, maybe if we do this panel and these women share their experiences, whoever attends will think, Oh my gosh, if these women feel this way too, and we're still able to do all of these incredible things, maybe I can too.

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[00:08:53] Approach by The Art of Charm

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[00:09:16] Who am I? I'm nobody. Like, they had Kobe Bryant as a guest. I mean, these really big names. Sugar Ray Leonard? I'm like, what? Why do you want me? Well, it turned out Michael worked on that podcast and he had seen... The talk, and I didn't know any of this at the time, and he had suggested they have me on to talk about this, and so that was really what got it started, and I was so anxious about coming on the podcast because I thought, I'm not an expert in this, it's an interest I have, but when I did that panel, I was reporting other people's work and research and findings, not anything that was my own, and so I really, of course, felt like a total imposter, but I said yes, because That's what I do.

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[00:10:07] And actually,

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[00:10:08] I think I could add one thing to that, which is, the response that I got both from the panel and from the podcast that really made me realize this is such a common, Issue and so much of the advice out there. I don't think is advice. That's particularly useful, which we talked about earlier, the like, let's strong arm your thoughts into positive thinking and let's build your confidence.

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[00:10:44] Hmm. Now in the first section of the book you talk about imposter phenomenon, which is where, where it all began. And I believe it was research on the experience of, of women in organizations where it, all began and blossomed from.

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[00:10:58] um, coined, Imposter Phenomenon, by Pauline Clance and Suzanne Imes, two, clinical psychologists in the late 70s. And they initially thought that this was something that really only occurred in high achieving women. Um, we since have a little bit better understanding that that does not entirely seem to be the case. what we now know is that this occurs in up to 70 percent of people. And when Clance and Imes identified the phenomenon, they called it the imposter phenomenon. But I don't think it's a coincidence that this thing they thought only occurred in women was quickly rebranded in our culture.

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[00:11:53] If it's happening to 70 percent of us, then it's part of the normal human experience. And so part of what I talk about in the book, you won't see [00:12:00] imposter syndrome on the cover. I use that phrase in the very beginning of the book because that's what people recognize and then very quickly sort of call for a cultural rebranding that we start referring to this again as the imposter phenomenon.

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[00:12:25] Hmm. And it, it really interested me in that first section of the book where you were talking about how this may impact more people who are. So it's a, it's a perfect example of how marginalized and also how context of an environment or a workplace, for example, can contribute. And this really resonates with me and a conversation I've been having with a colleague of mine, Jamie Tapper, and she's an ex principal ballerina from the Royal Ballet, and she's now an organizational psychologist.

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[00:13:04] Yeah, I mean, I can see that. It's such a highly competitive. Environment and I don't know much about that world. Correct me if this is wrong, but I certainly don't get the impression that the people in charge, the people that are evaluating the dancers are offering a lot of, you know, praise and encouragement.

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[00:13:29] Yeah. And similarly, have glimpses of this environment and I have Jamie's experience to reflect on. But it does feel at times, that they are treated as vehicles.

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[00:13:40] Yeah.

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[00:13:55] To this in that and then I'll talk about the marginalization piece too, but [00:14:00] in that, you know, Early humans didn't have fangs and claws and run at high speeds They had each other right and and humans who hunted and gathered and traveled together had a survival advantage And so to constantly be checking your status in the group.

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[00:14:14] Do I measure up? Do I add value? do I have something to offer here? And I don't want people to find out if I am not pulling my weight, because if you got kicked out, it was literally a life or death situation. And of course, now fast forward a couple hundred thousand years, we're not maybe going to be attacked by, I don't know, saber tooth tigers or whatnot.

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[00:15:09] Important. And, and so I do think that that's a lot of what's going on at the core of this. and then when you add the marginalization piece, you know, really anybody who has a history of being told they don't belong at the tables may be more vulnerable to this, right? If women have been told they don't belong at male tables or, uh, people in the LGBTQ community have been told they don't belong in straight cis spaces.

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[00:15:51] Simple comparisons of men versus women not robust enough

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[00:16:10] I think we want to look at people who have experienced marginalization versus people who haven't. And I think that's where we're going to notice more of the differences and what, you know, some studies do show that women. experience this more often than men, and many studies show that that's not actually the case.

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[00:16:39] It makes perfect sense. So P Supers, if you're listening and you are a researcher, here's your topic.

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[00:16:47] Organisation of Book

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[00:16:57] Yeah, so the first section is I think titled understanding which is really about, you know What what is imposter syndrome who's most vulnerable to it? How many people have it the different subtypes? Which is something that a woman called Valerie Young came up with then I created a little quiz so people can figure out what their their subtype is And, you know, so it's really just kind of getting the background like I, I'm teaching you everything I know about this imposter phenomenon that I can find this out there so that you have this background, The second part of the book is called evolving. And this is really where all of the skills are taught all the psychological flexibility skills for learning how to relate to these experiences in a different way so that they no longer hold you back.

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[00:17:41] And I will say, I think we most commonly talk about how this can hold people back. But the other way this Often presents is not an under working. You know, it's not just about avoiding opportunity. It's about overworking. Like, if I just do this one more thing, earn this award to get this promotion, get more money, whatever it [00:18:00] is, like, then I'll finally feel legitimate.

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[00:18:21] Living full size not fun size

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[00:18:45] And so I use that as sort of a metaphor that we want to live full size, not fun size, which isn't really fun at all. And so that section focuses on the role of community. You know, kind of together, I think the chapter's called Together We Can. Um, self compassion and then just kind of a final tour through psychological flexibility.

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[00:19:16] And thinking about that TEDx talk, would you, don't tell us the whole story, because I want people to go and read the book. I think it's so important that people read the book. But just give us a bit of a background about what happened and maybe what your mind was saying.

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[00:19:46] Maybe we can put it in your show notes. It's really wonderful.

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[00:20:03]

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[00:20:03] And so I had already read that book. You know, I, I was, already preparing to want to do this at some point, but I wasn't ready. And I thought I'd be the one to seek out the opportunity and to apply, but this sort of fell in my lap. And so it was like deer in headlights kind of panic, like, Oh my God, I'm not, I'm not ready.

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[00:20:39] So don't expect to get in the first time. And that's how I convinced myself just to do the, the little like intro audition video. And I mean, within, I don't know, a couple hours. I found out that I got this talk and so of course the mind is like, Oh, well, obviously she was sort of short on submissions and she just accepted everybody.

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[00:21:09] I was feeling like particularly self conscious about appearing on video, sort of like memorializing myself on video for forever. Um, you know, just a number of I was just overwhelmed with self doubt and fear. And I really didn't know if I could do it.

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[00:21:37] WWJD

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[00:21:48] And as I'm spinning out thinking I'm the worst therapist ever, because usually that means what would Jesus do, and I had no idea this client I'd been seeing for quite a while was religious and I'm a terrible therapist, she [00:22:00] saves me and says, you know, what would Jill do? And I was like, oh. Thank God. Not a terrible therapist after all.

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[00:22:40] Jill's J is Oprah

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[00:22:59] But these are things I think I know about the quality she embodies. So, when it came to the real choice point of, am I gonna do this? TED Talk or not, I, I truly thought, well, what would Oprah do? And it was a no brainer. She'd obviously do the talk, no matter if she felt self conscious or scared or anything else.

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[00:23:17] And then I sort of took it a step further and I thought, well, what would she say to me? Like, if Oprah were here and she knew that I was really struggling in this way, what would she say to me? And, you know, because part of my insecurity had to do with my physical appearance, she would say, Jill, you're so much more than your body.

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[00:24:11] I didn't wait until they were gone. I didn't wait until I felt confident. I did it in the presence of that pain. And I will admit to you that watching that video to this day is very difficult for me to do and, you know, Sheila and Kevin, they're right there with me when I watch it but I am so dang glad I did it and I'm so proud of myself because it was hard, you know, it was hard to feel that many Tough, tough emotions.

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[00:25:01] Psychologists Off the Clock

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[00:25:20] my Podcast heroes, you and the psychologists off the clock team.

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[00:25:40] Yeah, and I think I talk about that maybe in the chapter on community, you know, the importance of having support people in your life. Although I don't remember if it's there somewhere else, but so when I was invited to be on the show, I had been a guest twice. They had me on to talk about my first.

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[00:26:16] I was like a super fan and now I'm a guest on this podcast. And, um, So I came on twice, and after the second time for Be Mighty, I was thinking about starting my own podcast because it's, you know, your publisher wants you to have a platform and a way to reach people if you're somebody who writes books.

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[00:26:48] Cause for the last couple months, we've been talking about inviting you to come on as a co host. And you know, of course the imposter thought was like, what? I'm not a podcaster. I don't know anything about podcasting. Who am I to. Like reach out to really smart people in this field and think that I know how to interview them.

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[00:27:27] Like to be able to nerd out about psychology with smart people who love to nerd out about psychology is so fun. And to read nonfiction books, to prepare for these interviews, you know, normally I wouldn't make the time to do it, but because this is part of my professional role, I have to make it. It's like I can give myself permission to make time to read books, whereas normally I might think I was like.

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[00:28:03] Yeah,

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[00:28:06] absolutely.

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[00:28:07] Okay, good. I made such an ass of myself. And, you know, so that's where having this team has been so wonderful, and all of us do this with each other, where I might text Debbie and Yael and say, Ugh, I feel like I talked too much in that interview, or I was acting like a know it all, or whatever the case may be.

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[00:28:47] You know, wait till you hear it. But just to have that. Support and to know that there is a team that has your back and that even if I was right and it did suck, they would still love and support me, And I have found time and time again that when there are times that I struggle to be psychologically flexible, That has been the thing that sort of bolsters me and keeps me going and makes it more likely that, you know, we talked about the water skiing earlier.

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[00:29:32] And I just thought, well, I can't, I have to at least try. Better to model for him trying and failing than not trying at all. And I tried and I did it and we got all the way to the top and he turned around and said, Mommy, I knew you could do it. And he and I have talked many times about how his support and his cheerleading, even from a little tiny guy, was so important and what a cool quality that is.

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[00:30:18] That our brains overestimate that likelihood, it usually doesn't happen. And when it does, we can generally deal with it better than we give ourselves credit for. But when that outcome happens and it's painful, I think, you know, having people there for those moments too is just, it is a, what's the word I'm looking for?

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[00:30:37] Um, um, and that's why I now have producer Emma, who is, is my support and my sounding board, because people might not appreciate how, you were talking earlier about putting a book out there into the world, and it's a vulnerable moment. When you're pressing publish on a podcast episode, and you've been editing it yourself, and you're thinking, Oh god, Ross, why did you say that?

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[00:31:15] Book Dedication

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[00:31:21] Oh, yeah.

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[00:31:39] Well, this, like, instantly makes me start crying. The minute you said dedication, like, all of the emotions came right up to the surface. So, the book is dedicated to Leanne Harris, who is a colleague of ours from ACBS that we mentioned earlier. And she was an absolutely incredible human who did So many different things.

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[00:32:17] And she was involved in a, it's a company called Author Accelerator that's run by Jenny Nash. It's awesome. And they train book coaches. And there's a whole certification process that you go through and Leanne was going through that process and oh, she was also a podcaster, as you mentioned, and I was the first guest, the very first guest on her, her podcast to talk about Be Mighty.

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[00:33:22] And, you know, my first two books were with a smaller publisher. I didn't have an agent. My first book had no advance. My second book had a very small advance. And through working with Leanne, an author accelerator, you know, we only worked on my proposal. I got an agent. My dream was to get it to be published by a big five publisher and that happened.

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[00:34:05] And she was just on the verge of doing so many incredible, great things. And so it was, it was really, really hard. It was really hard. And I stopped writing. I couldn't do it. Oh, I'm getting really choked up. Every time I sat down to try to work on this. I just had so much grief. I couldn't do it. And so I had to put it aside for a while. And then eventually it kind of became like a WWLD situation, right? Like, what would Leanne do? And I just knew she would be so angry at me if she knew that I put this project on the back burner and that I wasn't, you know, persevering and living the messages in that. Book and she'd be very upset if she thought that that was because of her.

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[00:35:12] This mark, you know, that she, and I really felt like, you know, I am not a very spiritual person, and I felt like she was sort of pulling some strings from beyond, that all of these amazing things came out of that, unfortunately, pretty short lived work with her, and, and so many people came up to me after, just really appreciative that I shared that story and knowing that it would have meant the world to her to see how successful that proposal is.

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[00:35:57] Oh, Jill, thank you. Thank you so [00:36:00] much for sharing that with us. Um, it was important for me to ask because I didn't, I didn't know Leanne very well. We just started to connect because I wanted to get her on the podcast.

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[00:36:11] but I just wanted to honor her because

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[00:36:36] And I'd like to think she'd be. beaming seeing us talking to each other.

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[00:36:45] Jill, thank you so much for your openness and your vulnerability. I'd like to ask if you have any top tips for our listeners, anything that you'd like to leave them with as a takeaway.

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[00:37:13] And it was about improving mental health and reducing suicidality. But I only had 20 minutes. And I was like, Oh my God, that's a tall order, but I really thought about it. And so this is what I'm going to give the PSupers as a takeaway is I thought, God, if I could only teach human beings one thing, because if you only have 20 minutes, it's one thing

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[00:37:34] that I genuinely think would, could dramatically change their lives for the better. It is starting to practice. Getting comfortable being uncomfortable, or an act what we call willingness or acceptance. Because so much of what we do, what we miss out on, or what we overdo in the burnout example I gave earlier, it's all about trying to avoid feelings we [00:38:00] don't want to have. And I think when we're willing to be uncomfortable, there's nothing that you can't Try.

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[00:38:28] And if you're willing to feel feelings, there's like almost nothing that you can't move forward with that matters to you. And I like to teach people, silly ways to start practicing this because If I said to you like, Oh, just like, accept your panic attacks. That's not going to happen.

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[00:39:25] And so you can sort of use that expansion to make space for discomfort. But especially notice the urge to switch it back or the urge to let go. Because that's the feeling we so often respond to. On autopilot. I don't like this feeling. I'm just going to stop doing it. And so can you make space for both the funny feeling of the fingers and make space for the urge to like, get rid of the funny feeling, to go back to the right quote unquote, right way and just be with that.

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[00:40:14] If you have like a politician that you really can't stand. Go ahead and watch some YouTube clips of them talking. And so you're not accepting their messages. Let me be clear about that. You're letting these things, these stimuli, trigger internal discomfort. And then you're practicing making space for internal discomfort as a way to practice so that when that shows up across contexts, you have a new way of relating to those experiences.

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[00:40:54] Beautiful, beautiful takeaway, Jill. Jill, I'd like to thank you so much for coming on the show.

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[00:41:10] Yeah,

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[00:41:12] you're a, you're an awesome communicator and an outstanding human and I know it's going to be a couple of great episodes, so thank you so much.

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[00:41:24] That's it, part two of my chat with Jill in the Bag. And I seriously love Jill's book and would wholeheartedly recommend it. A big thanks to my producer Emma, and together, We'd like to reach more people, so... If you like this episode or the podcast, please could you do three things? Number one, share it with one other person. Number two, subscribe and give us a five star review, whatever platform you're on.

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[00:42:20] Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic and Alex Engelberg for his vocals. Most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves, peace supers, and bye for now.

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[00:42:33] Yay!

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[00:42:35] You, I should have said there while we were still recording, you are also an excellent interviewer, and you make, you made me feel very comfortable, it was like very easy to be open and talk about all the things, and I really, I love the way that you structure

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[00:42:51] it's awesome, it works really nicely, yeah