Noticing with Dr Richard MacKinnon

[: 00:00:00

[00:00:00] Ross: Hi there, and a very warm welcome to Season five, episode 53 of Peoples Soup. It's Ross Macintosh here,

[: 00:00:06

[00:00:18] A prediction that's not helpful to who we want to be. But there's another level, I argue, and there's lots of ways this is described in the literature, but I call it playwriting. We've mentally got absorbed to a future scenario, and we're acting it out in our mind. He said, she said, so then I do this. And all the time, we're not here.

[: 00:00:39

[00:01:02] Ross: Pea Super. It's the second part of our miniseries. My new collaboration with Dr.

[: 00:01:07

[00:01:19] Here we present Part 2 of the miniseries where we explore the process of noticing, or present moment awareness. We talk about how we can spend too much of our lives on autopilot, tangled up inside our own heads. We also share how we're developing our own noticing skills and leave you with some top tips and ideas.

[: 00:01:38

[00:02:09] Let's just scoot over to the news desk because reviews are in for our last episode which was my chat with him off the telly, Dr. Ranj Singh. On Facebook, Platinum P Super Claire Stafford said, They say to never meet your heroes, yet here you are with a long appreciated favorite in our house, Dr. Ranj. He failed to mention his truly wonderful Get Well Soon series.

[: 00:02:33

[00:02:58] For now, get a brew on and have a listen to the second part of my collaboration with Dr. Richard McKinnon.

[: 00:03:07

[00:03:21] Richard: I'm Dr. Richard McKinnon. I'm an occupational psychologist, and a coaching psychologist, and none of those titles really matter, uh, but this is what I do for a living.

[: 00:03:30

[00:04:03] I often describe it as a superpower. with my coaching clients and team training. So what do we mean by that present moment awareness? Do you want to have a stab at that Richard?

[: 00:04:17

[00:04:29] Now, we want to be clear that not all of the mental time travel we do is bad. We might reflect on experiences to learn from them. That's a kind of mental time travel. We're going back. But when we're not in the moment that we're in, and we're off in our mind, maybe to a scary future, an anxiety inducing future or a catastrophic future.

[: 00:04:54

[00:05:14] So the superpower of noticing the moment we're in, the context we're in, and deciding what we're going to do in that moment, not the past or an imagined future, that's really what we're trying to tap into. How did I do with that?

[: 00:05:30

[00:05:56] Because we're stuck inside our own heads doing this mental time [00:06:00] travel. And like you, I wouldn't knock that mental time travel, that, because sometimes that, sometimes that's what we're paid for. planning and anticipating.

[: 00:06:10

[00:06:32] intentionally take ourselves out of the present moment and learn from that. But what we're talking about is the, it's almost like our mind has picked us up from the present moment. Like one of those machines at the seaside, you know, the claw where you're trying to get the teddy bear. We've been picked up and brought to somewhere else kind of against our will.

[: 00:06:51

[00:06:51] Richard: along with it without realizing it because it's very compelling images of the future memories of the past. They're very engaging, but they're not what's happening now.

[: 00:07:02

[00:07:08] It's thinking about noticing. We don't always notice how we're showing up in different scenarios in our lives and in our working lives too. We don't notice the impact we're having on each other or ourselves. Sometimes we'll be showing up as a version of ourselves that's If I look back on it I'll be like, oh Ross, really?

[: 00:07:27

[00:08:12] 9%. So 46. 9 percent of our time we're not focused on what's going on right now in the present moment around us. And it's weird because when I ask people in the workplace, what do you think that number is? They'll say like 70, 80. They kind of sense that our minds wander more than this actual research told us, but. The fact that people can recognize this is a super important distinction I find in workplace and in coaching, to notice where it might be useful for us to step into that present moment in a particular scenario.

[: 00:08:47

[00:09:12] You're just focused on their every word as they ask you questions, like the ultimate focus, but also Your focus can then go to noticing what your hands are doing and your sweaty palms and your thumping chest and visions of not getting the job and visions of how you could have prepared better and before you know it, you've missed the question.

[: 00:09:33

[00:09:52] Ross: Oh, you're giving me goosebumps Richard because absolutely how much of our lives are we in that [00:10:00] wandering state when it would be more useful to be there and you spill the water in the interview. Not that that's ever happened to me. Or, here's the thing, I speak to my dad every day on Zoom. He's 88, he lives alone, and he has done since my mum passed away in 2019.

[: 00:10:20

[00:10:40] Or, goodness me, I really need to get back to my work. And he's telling me this long convoluted tale. And I'm telling you this, listeners, not in any way am I proud of this. But it just shows how my mind can wander. And that's not who I want to be in my relationship with my dad. I'm conscious that sometimes maybe I'm the only person he's spoken to that day.

[: 00:11:02

[00:11:15] Richard: important point, isn't it? Because you could have the intention

[: 00:11:18

[00:11:20] Richard: could be really important to you to do it, but still it's difficult to do it, because it's the nature of our minds. And I use the analogy of a muscle, you know, you've got to train that muscle over time to be able to bring your focus to something intentionally, because it's not a natural thing we're born with.

[: 00:11:39

[00:12:07] Listening to someone, interviewing someone, Being in a meeting and being a contributor in the meeting rather than another warm body around the table. All of these things require intention. And all of them require that muscle of focus. And you might be listening to this now thinking, Five minutes into the Zoom call, I'm gone.

[: 00:12:29

[00:12:56] your attention is, but also when it is, you know, am I focused on the person in front of me or am I thinking about my next meal? Am I listening to this presenter or am I still caught up with the feedback I got this morning from my boss, which wasn't great. And being able to bring yourself back gently to that present moment and not beat yourself up about the fact that you have wandered.

[: 00:13:22

[00:13:57] Richard: find it really useful to give them [00:14:00] some conceptual models to work with. And that's probably a really fancy way of, um, let's use the same words to describe the same thing as we talk about this. And we sort of, you know, noticing is a great way to start because we said it last time, language matters.

[: 00:14:15

[00:14:37] You know, you're an observer in that moment and you can direct your attention rather than it being dragged left and right. A little model I use around the future thinking. People might find this useful is to enable the distinction between three kinds of manifestations of that. There's the intentional planning.

[: 00:14:58

[00:15:22] A prediction that's not helpful to who we want to be. But there's another level, I argue, and there's lots of ways this is described in the literature, but I call it playwriting. We've mentally got absorbed to a future scenario, and we're acting it out in our mind. He said, she said, so then I do this. And all the time, we're not here.

[: 00:15:42

[00:16:05] You know, this has never happened, but the emotions are very real. So it kind of does matter where our attention is, and it does matter that we're able to notice that we're doing that, and then come back to the present moment. So, it starts with talking about the benefits of it, and it talks about noticing, just noticing what, who, when you're focusing, and noticing the opposite of that.

[: 00:16:33

[00:16:55] And yet the amazing brain that we have enables us to do that. But their mind was who knows. their schedule for the day, the argument they had yesterday, whatever, but they weren't focused on the moment. And I find that's one that really brings it home to people, that you can be skillful at doing something and yet not be wholly engaged with it. Imagine how much better you could be at that thing if you were bringing all of your focus, your attention to it.

[: 00:17:24

[00:17:46] Richard: Yeah. So let me tell you, I moved house

[: 00:17:47

[00:18:06] Richard: the road. And after what I think anyone would agree was a bit of a tough day at work, I was walking home from the tube and just found myself in the reception of my old apartment building. And I maybe crossed three, four roads to get there and got all the way there and realized I don't live here anymore. And oh, how he laughed, but at the same time, that was a complex thing I was doing and I managed to get all the way there without the conscious realization that I was going the wrong way. So we can scale that up to our workplace examples. going through the motions automatically without noticing, Oh, it's different.

[: 00:18:50

[00:19:04] Ross: We're not totally knocking Autopilot, let's be clear, because without that sometimes it's useful to be able to drive and think about something else, on a familiar route for example, and without Autopilot we wouldn't have great Feats of imagination, artistry, poetry, music, painting, dance, all sorts of stuff. That's people allowing their minds to wander, but we're just saying that sometimes it overreaches itself. Hmm.

[: 00:19:32

[00:19:35] Ross: Hmm. Yeah.

[: 00:19:41

[00:19:57] It is great research to show the benefits [00:20:00] of walking for problem solving. We're multitasking right there. We're letting our mind go through the problems while we're walking. And lo and behold, we sit back down at our desk and we've got it. So this isn't about either total focus constantly all the time, which is impossible.

[: 00:20:22

[00:20:40] Ross: Yeah, absolutely lovely. And hearing you talk about the M word, mindfulness, and how it can, I believe that mindfulness has become damaged by its own popularity.

[: 00:20:52

[00:20:53] Ross: There are people peddling versions of it that are not mindfulness and are not ethical, but maybe have quite glossy marketing. And it's tricky.

[: 00:21:05

[00:21:31] And we don't empty our mind. You know, I've had that pushback in training when people said, Oh, no, I just, uh, It's lovely. It just emptied my mind.

[: 00:21:40

[00:21:41] Richard: I said, well, when, when it was empty, what, what did you notice? Oh, it was like a white room. Well, there, there's a thought like you're always thinking you can't empty your mind.

[: 00:21:50

[00:21:53] Ross: Hmm. And the way I'd present it is I'd say, how would I define mindfulness? I could use the formal [00:22:00] definition, but I'd say it's like a form of mental training. We might go to the gym or do some light stretching. or walking to look after our bodies a little bit. But we don't often afford the same intention to our minds.

[: 00:22:15

[00:22:38] And there are so many different ways to practice it though.

[: 00:22:41

[00:23:08] Um,

[: 00:23:08

[00:23:29] And I'm like, hang on a minute. You noticed your mind wandering 15 times? That's a marvelous practice. Because if you notice that mind wandering and brought the attention back to the body or the breath, for example, Then that's you building that mental muscle. And you can always see this look of, no, I want to be really shit at this. It's almost like that. And it's a practice. [00:24:00] It's a practice that sometimes you might notice different things.

[: 00:24:04

[00:24:07] Ross: Hmm.

[: 00:24:08

[00:24:24] I've noticed when I come into the room, Oh, that's moved. That chair is at a different angle. Or I noticed that, Oh, when the sun comes through the window, it doesn't move. Um, as this pattern on the floor, once we can start to realize that everything, not everything that comes into our awareness requires a response, um, or can be controlled. And then we can have this stance of noticing means we're aware, but we don't do anything to it. Our, our default is often, well, I have this thought, so I better solve it somehow. And we're going to talk about that in our next episode and that's why it follows this. The power of noticing is a double edged sword, particularly if you don't like what you're beginning to notice.

[: 00:25:06

[00:25:17] to pay any more attention to it, or they don't like the thoughts about the future. That their mind gives them. So we don't want to just do the noticing in isolation.

[: 00:25:30

[00:25:34] Ross: Yeah, yeah, this is, this is the beauty of psychological flexibility. It's a combination of skills and they all interlink with each other. So, Richard, how do you practice this skill of noticing yourself? Hmm, hmm,

[: 00:25:52

[00:26:10] And I do it before I do anything at work. So weekdays it happens here in the office. and before I turn on a computer, before I look at a screen, I do that. And I've, I've really noticed that that helps me with whatever I see next. I'm seeing it through the lens of context and the lens, not of panic or doing, doing, doing, but I've just spent a good five minutes, maybe a little bit longer reflecting and practicing, watching thoughts go by.

[: 00:26:46

[00:27:10] And that for me is a form of mindfulness. I love the repetitive nature of the movement. And I love what I'm able to notice while I'm doing it, the changes around me, if I do the same route, and notice how things look different every day because of the weather. And it's just, it's almost like a meditation in itself.

[: 00:27:31

[00:27:51] I use Headspace. Others are available, but I don't think it's the best or better than others. It's just my [00:28:00] practice. It's what I'm used to. And I find a comfort in that. What about you?

[: 00:28:05

[00:28:26] Let's listen to this meditation. And some of them work really well for me. Some of them not so much, but some of them just help me. relates to a particular event going on. So mine's more mixed about during the day.

[: 00:28:39

[00:28:39] Ross: But like you, with your running, cycling is for me, and I just love going out on my bike and noticing the changes in nature.

[: 00:28:50

[00:29:13] So, that's a great way that I use. And in a working day, if I'm working at home, just stepping out into the garden, Listening is a big one for me. Listening to birdsong or listening to just noises I can hear, that really just helps me reconnect with now.

[: 00:29:32

[00:29:59] take a [00:30:00] few breaths. Yeah,

[: 00:30:01

[00:30:28] Richard: it's more of a comment.

[: 00:30:30

[00:30:52] What can I see from this street that I'm surprised that I can see on the horizon or poking up one of those tall buildings? What can I see that maybe thinks, Oh, I didn't know I could see that from here, et cetera, et cetera. And it just really helps me connect with what's going on around me.

[: 00:31:09

[00:31:28] And we can really broaden that to maybe challenge assumptions. in, in training, I often bring up the topic of where you could do mindful chores. The things that you need to do anyway, that you might race through and try and distract yourself about, why not bring your focus to them, and iron the shirt with a mindful focus. Clean the toilet with a mindful focus. It doesn't, and this is, I think there's a lesson in this, which is, it doesn't make these things fun or pleasurable. You won't necessarily look forward to cleaning [00:32:00] the toilet, but what you're doing while doing something you have to do anyway is building up this noticing muscle so that you can focus and realize what the experience was like, whether it's eating, cleaning, sitting and breathing.

[: 00:32:15

[00:32:31] Ross: Lovely. And I absolutely agree. We're not adding anything to your day. So if you want to try doing the washing up, using your five senses to notice the temperature of the water, the noise from the tap or the plates clanking against each other, the smell of the very liquid. Other liquids are available. And Yeah, that whole experience, it's so rich in a sensory field.

[: 00:32:58

[00:33:09] Richard: So there's a perspective that I speak about in coaching sometimes and I draw on my own experience. So I love to travel and one of the reasons I love to travel, it's not airports, it's not security, it's not packing bags. It's going somewhere new and experiencing it for the first time. Because what I've noticed, noticed, is if I go somewhere new, there's so much I could pay attention to.

[: 00:33:35

[00:33:56] What are the things on this desk you would notice?

[: 00:33:59

[00:34:30] If we're approaching a colleague, a loved one, a situation with that lens of I already know, it's kind of like looking through a dirty windscreen or a dirty windshield. We've got all our history of that built up on the windscreen. Can we just clear that off and just say, I'm going to choose this perspective.

[: 00:34:52

[00:35:07] Richard: My final point I'll throw into the mix is to remind people that it's not always comfortable when you start bringing your attention to the present moment. You might notice, as a lot of people do when they do mindfulness training, they might notice physical discomfort. And it sort of grows within them.

[: 00:35:27

[00:35:48] Not an automatic, habitual response, if that's not going to be helpful. And not one that's driven by what might be. But what is in that moment and listeners, you could start [00:36:00] working on this today by just noticing what happens to your body when you breathe, when you're sitting down, it can be as simple as that.

[: 00:36:08

[00:36:28] And, anything you want to share about, um, What you've noticed once you've practiced it, you can send us an email, uh, podcast at worklifepsych. com or ross. peoplesoup at gmail. com. Doesn't matter who you email. We'll both talk about these emails and we'd love to hear from you, wouldn't we?

[: 00:36:46

[00:36:56] Richard: noticed that.

[: 00:36:57

[00:37:00] Richard: Should we talk a little bit about

[: 00:37:02

[00:37:02] episode. Yeah, let's, let's just touch on that. So people know what to follow. I sort of mentioned it a little bit earlier on that sometimes when we notice what our mind is giving us, we don't really like it. So next time we're going to turn to the skill of being able to see thoughts for what they are, not what they say they are.

[: 00:37:20

[00:37:43] And we all know that they can, they can be very compelling so that when we've noticed something, we could just let it go. We don't have to do anything with it.

[: 00:37:51

[00:38:09] Richard: Thanks for joining us. We'll see you in the next episode.

[: 00:38:12

[00:38:13] that's it, folks. Part two of our collaboration in the bag. And a hearty thanks to Richard. We're having great fun with this collaboration. and the next part will be a long before you know it. Here at PeopleSoup, we're on a mission to reach more adults with this behavioral science, and we could really do with your help, so

[: 00:38:37

[00:38:41] Ross: Number one, share it with one other person. Number two, subscribe and give us a five star review, whatever platform you're on.

[: 00:38:49

[00:39:16] Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic and Alex Engelberg for his vocals. Most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves, peace supers, and bye for now.

[: 00:39:30

[00:39:33] Ross: Yeah, me too. I'm gonna press stop recording now, and see what the hell happens