Movember Part 1 with Dr Steve Jones

   Hi there, and a very warm welcome to Season 5, Episode 33 of PeopleSoup. It's Ross McIntosh here. talking to, um, Al Pepper on the testicular cancer one. which is the last one released. And just phrases that we were talking about, so like, grow a pair, or, um, that's the dogs.

just, just inherent within that, messages that tell you, don't do this, what if, what if you're rejected? And I had a conversation with someone who, they were talking about, worrying about talking about depression or, or anxiety at work because of a fear of that having recriminations against them, and fearing that They would be sacked, fearing that they, might not be listened to or dismissed and just that in itself is... We know that keeping those emotions bottled up, locked down, throwing away the key. We know that's not the way to change. We know that's not gonna, lead to positive growth. It's gonna lead to, well, either stuckness, but often it's stuckness at best.

Pee Soupers, one of the wonderful things about having a producer, and specifically a producer like Emma, Is that she's fizzing with ideas. when Emma mentioned Movember, I immediately sent out a bat signal to friend of the show, Dr. Steve Jones, and later that week we met virtually over an evening brew to chat about men's mental health. why do men seem to find it more difficult to talk about emotions, stuff that makes them feel uncomfortable, 📍 and instead tend to bottle it up? Well, we have a go at answering that and reflect on some of the guests that Steve has had on his brilliant show The Shit Shower and Self Care Podcast We also touch on Steve's pride at his nerdiness, football, and superheroes.

PeopleSuper is an award winning podcast where we share evidence based behavioural science in a way that's practical, accessible, and fun. Our mission is to unlock workplace potential with expert perspectives from contextual behavioural science. Let's just scoot over to the news desk.

st of November: 2023

It's a training program set over four sessions in partnership with Joe Oliver at Contextual Consulting and you'll find the link in the show notes. I developed this training protocol alongside Dr. Paul Flexman at City University of London and I've delivered it to hundreds of workplace participants across all sectors.

I also use it as the foundation for many of my workplace interventions. And while we're at the news desk, reviews are in for one of our last episodes. we've had a brilliant response to part two of my chat with Jill Stoddard. Joanna said, I love how integrated Jill is in relation to her mission for society, herself and her family.

Patricia said, Just finished listening to your podcast on my morning drive to work. It was excellent. Loved the tips from Jill, and you're great at interviewing and podcasting. And Kerry said, It's excellent. Jill opens up a whole new world of possibility and got me to look at my own imposter experience in a new light.

I love your style of interviewing, Ross. You have a wonderful pace and rhythm. Well, thanks so much to Joanna, Patricia, and Kerry, and for everyone who listened, shared, and rated my chat with Jill. Your support is what makes the PeopleSoup community so special, so please do keep listening and subscribing, sharing, and letting me know what you think.

If you make some noise about the podcast and our guests, We'll reach more people with stuff that could be useful. So, for now, Get a brew on, And have a listen to part one of my Movember chat with Dr. Steve Jones. 📍

Soupers, welcome to this quite unusual episode. The origin of this is I was chatting to my producer Emma, who suggested a November episode for Movember. So I thought, who could I speak to about men's health with a workplace angle? And there was only one choice really, it was Dr.

Steve Jones. Steve, welcome back to PeopleSoup.

Thank you for having me.

Delighted. I'd still say I'm very jealous that you have a producer.

yeah, it's quite fancy, isn't it, man?

Ha ha ha.

This too could be yours one day.

The stars to aim for.

Yeah. So, so, Steve, would you mind reintroducing yourself to the Paysupers, just briefly telling us a bit about

Yeah. So, uh, hi everyone. I'm a clinical psychologist, um, working in Sheffield, predominantly work with, with young people, children with health conditions. but I tend to have a big leaning towards ACT, um, which I'm sure will probably come out. and I've also got a very big interest in male mental health and trying to spread the messages that essentially we can, we can talk about this stuff.

so when you asked me to come on to talk about Movember, yeah, of course I want to do that. That's a brilliant initiative. And I know no one will be able to see this, but the, the, the trying to grow the Tash out is, uh, we're only on the ninth. I'm worried what it's going to look like in, uh, 10 days, 11 days, but we'll see.

ah, I'm hoping it might have sort of twirls at the end by then, Steve. What do you reckon?

my wife isn't hoping that.

I'm thinking of like, Victorian weightlifter in a stripy outfit.

Ooh. The, the, yeah. Oh, it's sort of a, a hipster barber. It's,

Ah, okay, I'll take, I'll take hipster barber too.

As long as I don't have to wear the skin tight vest, then yeah, I'll go for the hipster barber.

We'll go with that, we'll go with that. So Steve, it's lovely to have you back. And last time you were on, we were speaking about your brilliant book, Act Made Yorkshire. And this time, we've also got your podcast to talk about, the Shit, Shower and Self Care podcast. And this is where Steve chats with guests, carving out a space for guys to talk about guys stuff.

But before we start talking about the podcast, Steve, just remind us about your book, please. Who's it for, and what's the intention of it?

Yeah, so he's two years old now, which is bizarre. so yeah, that came out of... out of COVID when I was at home and I thought, well, why not? Let's put my money where my mouth is type of thing. which is very on brand. I appreciate.

Essentially, it's a guided self help book designed for just to take the principles of ACT And to digest it and bring it back out in a way that is down to earth. I attempt to be funny at times. Whether that lands or not is a different question, but I attempt it. And it's using metaphor that is quite local to me, that I would have got, essentially I've got to a point where it's the book that I would have written for me as a 17 year old.

So the book for me before I knew anything about psychology. That I could have picked up and read and understood. That's essentially what I've tried to do.

Mmm, and I think it works really well. It's a book that is, it's written with great skill, but it's also a really heartwarming read, and really practical, I think. It, it really touches the audience, and I think it, it's, I think it works on loads of different levels, and I think it will attract men who perhaps don't want to talk about mental health, but I think it's a way in for them.

And there is a part of that. You know, working with lots of people in and around Sheffield and thinking about just concepts within mental health and we, people might introduce things like mindfulness and what images that conjures up. within certain sections of society and what they, what they might believe that is and the stories that are told about it.

Oh God, that's not for me.

Hmm,

Let's repackage this

Actually, let's repackage this. Let's brand this slightly differently. Oh, this is something that you can access and can be helpful just because it's called something, you know, even the word therapy that brings up connotations and, sort of stereotypes that actually If you read a book that is designed for you, it's more likely to land for you.

Whereas if you're reading something that's not designed for you, well it's, I say this, it's impossible to design something for everyone, isn't it? Because we're all so unique and individual. So this is my attempt to, it's very, it's a niche corner of the market. I appreciate but that's, that's the niche that I live in.

hmm, and I love it, it really reflects you, and it reflects your skill as a clinician, and that humour as well, whilst weaving in those exercises. And then, then you've grown it, you've entered the world of podcasting. with the Shit, Shower and Self Care podcast. I mean, how did that come about? Tell us why that's important to you.

So, through conversations with, with friends, with, um, just with, with other people in general, you just get this sense that, how are you doing? I'm all right. That's it. And even though in your own head, you might be going, oh, there's this, but No one wants to hear that. Well, actually, why not? Why don't we do that?

Why don't we share that? And it, it got to a point where, again, it's that thing of put your money where your mouth is, you know. Why not give this a go? If it falls spectacularly flat, then okay. No harm, no foul. If it's something that generates a bit more interest, that gets a bit of an audience, that basically builds up a...

So, not designed as a series, but if it's a repository of different subjects that someone might come along and think, huh... I know someone who that might apply to, or, oh, that might apply to me. Then you can cherry pick, because some of the topics might not mean anything to you, or some of the topics might be, you know, really quite heavy or difficult, and you might not want to listen to that, and might not be in a place for that.

Okay? it's not a series, you can pick and choose, so eventually that's what I'd like to, like to have, where people could see different things, whether it's about anxiety, whether it's sexuality, whether it's eating disorders, whether it's, baby loss whether it's testicular cancer, you know, that people can see something and hopefully find something that connects to them. And, yeah, the title and it just came about, what was some of the things that I always remember. And it was that thing of, if I'm going out, I need shit, shower and a shave. It's like, well, not everyone needs a shave, so...

We can get rid of that, but everyone could do with a bit of self care.

Oh, let's go for that.

Nice. Thank you. And I really applaud the, the whole philosophy and the intention behind it. And I love the idea that it's like a menu that we can pick from. And I have actually done that. I'm delighted to report. I've actually gone in and explored things and then listen to them again. Because it's quite, uh, an in depth conversation and you have guests that are really giving the view from their perspective, perhaps about a life experience and it is creating that conversation that two men could have between each other.

And that's, that's the exact point, not trying to be formal. It's just, you know, I'm getting people on who, sometimes they're experts. More often, I prefer experts by experience, people who've lived. These things and have gone through it because you can't replicate that. So actually being able to talk to people who've experienced these things and who feel able to share that, that's not for everyone, but for some people who are able to do that, you know, it's, it can touch so many more.

and you know, I copying from those who've gone before me, like yourself, the features around songs and around, you know, actually, what can I do? What, how can I elicit? This idea of masculinity and, and what it means for men and mental health. And this idea that, I ask everyone about a character that inspired their idea of masculinity.

And it's amazing some of the answers and the insights I get. So some people have talked about, the main character from To Kill a Mockingbird. I've also had Tintin. I've also had, uh, Aragorn from Lord of the Rings. Doctor Who. So, you're getting such across it, but it means so much to every person, what they're bringing.

Ah, right. Men can have lots of role models. They don't all have to be, strongman, beef castle type,

Hmm.

guys. It can just be, you know, Tintin. It could be Doctor Who. It could be,

Yeah.

it could be anyone.

And I'd love that. I love the podcast and I love that. Give me, uh, a person who's a role model for you for masculinity and full disclosure here I was the one who chose Tintin so that was for a variety of reasons for the, for the curiosity, for the energy, for the wanting to do good in the world type of role model for me.

I think it can be a way in for man to talk about this stuff, thinking about role models.

Well, last year, me and my friend, um, were both book nerds. We both love, uh, fantasy books. And we had the thing of, Okay, who are your top five characters in fantasy, in, in, in media and books? And we all, we put them down, and then we sort of like shared them to each other. Oh no, it was top ten.

We shared them in order, like, you're ten, my ten, you're nine, my nine. And as we went through, we started laughing, because like, well, we've clearly got a type here. Like, oh, right, okay, this is actually more revealing than I thought it would be. And we were just having a laugh about it. Like, oh, this is... We obviously connect to people who we see.

Who, when we see ourselves or elements that we admire. Huh, that's interesting. So it's sort of... Inspired that a little bit.

Isn't that interesting that perhaps we find our sort of tribe?

Yeah, if I'd have been collect I'd have been in so much trouble If I collected those 10 characters in one space, I'm not gonna lie. It wouldn't have ended well for me I'd have been rich but only for a very short period of time

I'll hear you. I'll hear you. But you've talked about some of the guests you've had. You've talked about testicular cancer, baby loss, eating Hmm. Hmm.

We've looked at anxiety. We've looked at depression. We've looked at sexuality especially sexuality through the lens of football And being a supporter and sort of the, the intersection between football, sexuality, mental health and how they can be a force for, for good and for change and for development. I've done a couple of, uh, character studies which are both very nerdy. Again, both from fantasy. Kaladin, Stormblast, and, uh, Percy de Rolo. If people don't know who they are, that's fine, they're quite niche. But, for those who do know... be interesting. we've also looked at, sort of general health.

We've looked at dying and bereavement and the sort of the, the aging process around that with yourself talking about work and sort of men's roles within that. So it's a, it's a broad range and I've got, um, you know, people lined up to talk about different things around, got another person who's coming in to talk about football specifically, and, he's a bit of an expert to say the least.

Um, guy to talk about his, sporting achievements and sort of, overcoming adversity. eventually, there'll be as many topics as there are topics to talk about is the plan. But yeah, that's sort of where we are at the minute and they've all been oh actually one that I haven't talked about It's a a group that's run within sheffield mind and Sort of how that was set up and the experiences that led to that being set up. coincidentally the, the man is also quite a famous referee in Sheffield, who I know has reffed me many times and who I know that I've probably been less than kind to at times.

So to get his idea of what motivates you to do that was, uh, quite an interesting conversation to come out of it as well.

I really do applaud you for, it's a, it's a labor of love. This I see it, and, and a labor of wanting to make a difference in the world. And I'm not mega big on football, but it did get me thinking about sports and, and it got me a bit more connected with my team, who coincidentally are doing slightly better than usual Newcastle United.

And it got me connected with their diversity supporters group. And I think it's something is important in people's lives as football. They do embrace the full range of their supporters.

that's exactly what the, so the guy that had on was from the Sheffield United one, so my team. So it's a section called rainbow blades and the work that they've done and continue to do sort of not just, in. Sort of campaigning, but also within the realms of socials before and after games and just being there for people and encouraging people to carve out a space and to say, I am a football fan.

Hmm,

you know, I am here for football. just to have that space without denying part of yourself and, uh, the interactions that that'd bring.

It's massively powerful and some of the things that you say, I'm like, oh, yeah, I'd never even consider that from my, heterosexual perspective.

Looking through our own lens

I'd have never even clocked that that was a thing, because you can only see through your own lens.

We can try to put ourselves in other people's positions, but ultimately we. View for the world through our own lens, don't we? So to have that Illuminated for me was incredibly powerful. Okay. Yeah So these are things that I can do to change and part of what I try to do is also own things when I've grown I've developed I'm not the same person I was when I was a kid when I was 15 16 going to football games and singing certain chants.

Oh god. Why would I? No. Um, and it is, it's horrible to think back, but actually it's important to reflect that that's still in football now and it's, it's still in society. Some of those chants and some of those things that people might not feel safe in that environment and you never even know that they don't feel

safe.

I'd have never clocked any of that

yeah, and we all have a role to play our own growth and Role modeling that for other people around us. It can spread like ripples in a pond. Now, this is a tricky question, but I'm going to ask it anyway.

Why do men find it difficult

We can both have a crack at it. But why do you think men find it difficult to talk about this stuff?

Well, that is a question, isn't it? it's interesting. a lot of the conversations that I've had on, on the pod do reflect things that I've spoken about with, with mates, which is, it's, on one hand, it's quite reassuring that those themes are, you know, what we talk about is not. Completely off the, off the wall and unique. But also that's quite disheartening as well. That, that's quite general across a lot of men. And the idea that people might not, you know, it's seen as weak or it's seen as, you know, The, the old, um, The misrepresented stoicism. I'm not allowed to talk about this, this is, you know, people just get on with it, people just do it.

Hyper masculinity

The, the hyper masculinity thing that we're told, big boys don't cry.

Yeah. Man up.

so, talking to, um, Al Pepper on the testicular cancer one. which is the last one released. And just phrases that we were talking about, so like, grow a pair, or, um, that's the dogs.

just, just inherent within that, messages that tell you, don't do this, what if, what if you're rejected? And I had a conversation with someone who, they were talking about, worrying about talking about depression or, or anxiety at work because of a fear of that having recriminations against them, and fearing that They would be sacked, fearing that they, might not be listened to or dismissed and just that in itself is... We know that keeping those emotions bottled up, locked down, throwing away the key. We know that's not the way to change. We know that's not gonna, lead to positive growth. It's gonna lead to, well, either stuckness, but often it's stuckness at best.

Hmm.

We can have more than that. We are allowed to talk about things that make us uncomfortable. There's no one that says we can't, even though the world tells us that we can't. The world's been wrong about a lot of things before.

I really do agree those social norms we have about man up and just crack on mate, maybe things like I'm the breadwinner, I've just got to keep going and keep earning and then if I'm feeling anxious or depressed at work, speak to my boss but will that affect my performance marking in my annual review?

Oh, I won't get a promotion if they don't think I can cope with this.

Yeah, will they think I'm a little bit soft?

I suppose the other things to talk about, Mene, We're conditioned in media. To see, and I can't remember who put the idea in my head in one of the conversations, but being conditioned by media to see men as dealing with problems via action, not words.

So as I alluded to, and it's plainly clear, I am a nerd, and I am very proud of this.

Superheroes role models

However, a lot of the, so the role models that you might see are people in inverted commas of action. You talk about superheroes. How often do they talk? How often do they try to solve things by talking? No, they hit it. If you ever put two superheroes in a room, they will fight each other and then realise, Oh, we should have just talked to each other.

Every single time, in every single story that's ever been written. Because that's what people want to see, that's what they expect. So, if you're constantly being told that you solve problems via action, You do, you do, you do, you do, you do. Or you punch it harder, and it will go away. Well, what about problems where that doesn't happen?

What about how you feel? You can't punch your feelings away.

Wow. That's a real lightbulb moment for me, Steve. I've never really thought about these superhero characters like that, the way they punch it out. And are we conditioned that that's the way we deal with those unhelpful thoughts or those unhelpful emotions?

You're much more likely to get a female superhero who talks about it. So in, in literature you have things, I don't know, people know about the... The ideas of a five man band, or a three man band. So it's the, the roles that different characters in stories will take. So you'll have like your leader, your lancer, who's like your sidekick.

You'll have the heavy, so the muscle. And then you'll, you might have another one, the tech guy, or the guy in the chair, so the smart guy. And then you'll have something called the heart, who is the emotional core of that. You know, the one that holds people together, that is there for others, that supports. Almost always a woman, especially in traditional, more traditional stories, the heart is always a woman, and often young.

So if, if that's the thing that you are, you are total, that, so women talk about things and they hold the group and the glue together, and men are the ones that either figure out the problem, they do it, or they punch it.

Yeah, we don't live in that society anymore.

And in workplace terms, that, that, that really carries through. A man who is banging the table and raising his voice is considered impassioned. A visionary leader. A woman who bangs the table and raises her voice is seen as a bit of, well, she's a bit hysterical. what's she getting on a high horse about?

And this, this spreads into the roles that, that are offered. Women are seen as more... Collegiate, they can deliver difficult messages, they can be more empathetic. And quite often, female leaders are put in difficult positions because of those stereotypes, and it's called the glass cliff. They're put in precarious leadership positions because they're perceived as someone who can deal with this and can manage difficult human relationships.

man would just go in like a bull in a china shop. there's still a lot of work to be done.

it's really interesting talking about the impact of that bottling up, because if we're bottling that up, we might take action that's perhaps less supportive of our long term physical health and mental health. We might turn to just... blotting it out with drink. We might turn to drugs or maybe things just like mindless scrolling on the internet, sort of disconnecting from things.

Maybe gambling.

Yeah, and it's, it's hard to predict how that's going to come out. It's the... Taking a bottle of coke and shaking it up

even if you do it slowly You don't know how that's gonna come out You don't know if you're gonna get sprayed or if it's gonna go somewhere else It's all gonna come out at once whereas if you were just doing that before it got shook up and you were Regularly checking in you were regularly just Taking the top off.

Yes, it's still not going to be pleasant when it's all shook up But it might not overflow or spray out in quite the same way. You might not experience it in quite the almost the reflexive actions or the reactions that you don't expect so like gambling or or you find yourself, huh? That's fourth day this week.

I've had a drink I didn't catch that.

I really love that, that metaphor of the coke bottle.

But again, if we're not checking in with us, if we're, if our attention's projected on the world, we'll never even realise you don't even know how much coke is in the bottle.

📍 Pee supers, that's it. Part one of my Movember chat with Steve in the bag. and the good news is, we continue with the Movember theme in our chat next week.

With more great insights and role modeling from Steve. A big thanks to my producer Emma. And together we'd like to reach more people, so

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Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic and Alex Engelberg for his vocals. Most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves, peace supers, and bye for now. I'm thinking of like, Victorian weightlifter in a stripy outfit.

Ooh. The, the, yeah. Oh, it's sort of a, a hipster barber. It's,

Ah, okay, I'll take, I'll take hipster barber too.

As long as I don't have to wear the skin tight vest, then yeah, I'll go for the hipster barber.