MORE Polyvagal Theory with Kerry Cullen
Hi there and a very warm welcome to Season 5 Episode 43 of People Soup – it’s Ross McIntosh here.
P Soupers - here's the third and final part of my chat with Kerry Cullen. Kerry is an embodiment coach, facilitator, chartered psychologist and an expert in Polyvagal theory.
In this episode we spend a bit more time reflecting on how Polyvagal Theory might help us understand our behaviour in the workplace. Including the concepts of rupture and repair, noticing and naming our state and how to map our own states and make our own resources more accessible.
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Transcript
PART 3
[:[00:00:07] Kerry: There's a lovely story, which I think explains the, concept of ventral anchors, and it's a story of a student that goes to his teacher and he, he's going to the teacher with his pain and the teacher says to him to take a teaspoon of salt and to pour the teaspoon of salt into a glass and to drink the water and of course it's very salty.
[:[00:00:57] Ross: Peasoopers, here's the third and final part of my chat with Kerry Cullen. Kerry is an embodiment coach, facilitator, chartered psychologist, and an expert on polyvagal theory.
[:[00:01:17] including the concept of rupture and repair, noticing and naming our state, and how to map our own states and make our own resources more accessible.
[:[00:01:56] Now let's just scoot over to the news desk. If you'd like to find out [00:02:00] more about the Act in the Workplace Train the Trainer program that I developed with Dr.
[:[00:02:29] Now p super's in exciting news. The bookmarks have landed, they've been delivered, And each review that's read out on the show will receive a couple of our freshly designed bookmarks.
[:[00:02:55] And we really do love to get your reviews, because they help us reach more people with stuff that could be useful. For now, get a brew on and have a listen to part 3 of my chat with Kerry Cullen.
[:[00:03:40] Because if we think about, particularly if they're dysregulated. And I really find this very liberating, Ross, to think about that we're human, we're gonna be dysregulated, and therefore we're gonna have a dysregulated system talking to another dysregulated system that's gonna happen and we'll have [00:04:00] ruptures.
[:[00:04:12] Ross: Beautiful. I just love
[:[00:04:19] Kerry: Yeah, and if we can honor the rupture and name the rupture, then we can repair. And when we repair, we can actually make the relationship stronger. And that has been my experience and I'm very conflict averse as well, Ross. So I find conflict really challenging, you know. But actually working through it from the language of rupture and thinking about it from dysregulation and just having an honest conversation about that really can strengthen relationships.
[:[00:05:03] Noticing and Naming
[:[00:05:10] Just that ability for us to actually notice where we are on the ladder can really help us to stand back and see. So in Polyvagal we do mapping exercises where we'll take that map and then we'll populate that map for ourselves.
[:[00:05:48] and I think it can be very powerful. It's like me yesterday when. I was in sympathetic, but I hadn't really realized I was in sympathetic until I caught myself in the seeking behavior. [00:06:00] And then it got me noticing, okay, this is where I am. So I think that practice of noticing and naming like act with compassion, respecting the survival state.
[:[00:06:14] Ross: yeah, so it's like noticing where I am on the ladder can be sort of curative. It gives me more possibilities to think here I am,
[:[00:06:26] Kerry: yeah, well to me it feels de shaming as well because I can get stuck in the story. Let's say I'm in, Sympathetic and let's say that I'm feeling very critical to myself about something, like I'm ruminating over something that I've done so I've got these thoughts of God, you know, why did I say that and could have done this differently, you know, that kind of thing.
[:[00:07:07] Because if I change my state, the story will will then change. So I'll give you an example of that. I remember I'd done a training course one day, woke up in the middle of the night and I'm having my courtroom drama, you know, really going over it, for a couple of hours of this kind of ruminating thoughts.
[:[00:07:48] Ross: Wow.
[:[00:08:05] Ross: So that's what we're doing when we do the mapping. I know I've done one mapping with
[:[00:08:23] Um,
[:[00:08:45] So it's like we have these menus ready for what helps us move up the ladder. And I suppose just to give some sort of general parameters about that, if we're in sympathetic with too much energy, what helps us move up the ladder is either something that will dispel the energy, so it can be going for a run or something that gets rid of energy or something that brings the energy down a bit, but something that's too slow in sympathetic, well, perhaps won't register as much, if that makes sense.
[:[00:09:19] Kerry: Yeah.
[:[00:09:22] Kerry: Yeah, if we're at the bottom, and that's, it's a really interesting place to explore, I think, we actually need more kindling. So, if we think the energy is very low, it's like when you're trying to get a fire lit. It's about thinking about it in terms of kindling. What's something very small that can start to bring some energy back?
[:[00:10:04] So really small, more micro moves, It might be just let's say nature is very regulating for a lot of us, so if we're in dorsal it might be simply just either going outside and sitting in nature or having a more of a slower walk. And it can be interesting if somebody's home away from home is more sympathetic.
[:[00:10:45] You know, it feels out of touch. It feels too far away. So then it's about relearning different strategies, which is about just bringing some kindling into the system.
[:[00:11:01] Kerry: Yeah, yeah,
[:[00:11:20] that I can move that and I can do it,
[:[00:11:24] Ross: otherwise, without the kindling, I'll just stay there at the bottom.
[:[00:11:29] Feeling stuck
[:[00:11:49] So. So I find it really helpful to say to myself, okay, I'm just going to spend 10, 15 minutes on this and just see what comes.
[:[00:12:07] So, but it's recognizing it's too big an ask.
[:[00:12:30] And I'm like, okay. Well, maybe do the, the overseas one first.
[:[00:12:38] Ross: Kind of ignoring the fact that he's missed the overseas postal deadlines, but let's just get those out of the way first. And then he got into a bit of, that was a bit of kindling for
[:[00:12:49] Ross: So
[:[00:12:49] that's those small steps and that,
[:[00:12:57] Kerry: yeah,
[:[00:12:58] Poss Spoons
[:[00:13:01] Kerry: so in terms of moving up and down the ladder,
[:[00:13:05] Kerry: it's not about being in ventral all of the time as we've mentioned, and of course that, you know, the more we can cultivate that ventral energy for ourselves, the more we have that in the tank. And often it's about what Deb calls using that as a ventral anchor.
[:[00:13:55] Salty water
[:[00:14:19] He then takes him down to the lake and he tells him to pour the salt into the lake and then to take a drink of water from the lake. So when he takes a drink of water from the lake it's not salty at all. kind of the headline of the story is for us to become more like the lake. So the more that we can have this ventral to hold us in our challenge, then the more resource we feel.
[:[00:14:52] human experience. We're not trying to move away from the difficult emotions or sensations we have inside of us. Because when we move away from that stuff to try and dull it or mute
[:[00:15:17] Kerry: Yeah, that's,
[:[00:15:19] Kerry: yeah, that's a lovely way of thinking about it. Yeah, we've got these anchors in ventral
[:[00:15:44] Ross: Absolutely.
[:[00:15:50] that can then fill us up.
[:[00:15:56] we repeat accessing them, the more chance we'll have to access them in the
[:[00:16:02] Kerry: Yeah. Exactly.
[:[00:16:05] Ross: of this mapping.
[:[00:16:06] I think there's a lovely link with that, of actually doing it too, right? Because we could know, for example, that being in nature really fills us up, then we might find we're not orientated to it as much, you know.
[:[00:16:26] Ross: love the way you express these things. And Kerry, there's a point I'd just like to go back to a bit about kind of conflict in the workplace, or if say you're a leader talking to a member of your team and one of you is in sympathetic, the other one's in dorsal, and how that can create that mismatch and potentially misunderstanding and rupture.
[:[00:16:48] Ross: What would you say to a leader and a team member in, in states like this? How would you help them unpack
[:[00:16:54] Kerry: Yeah. Well, that's, it's a really good question and it's so practical, right? You know, how, how do we actually bring this to life? So just thinking from the leader perspective, there's, there's a couple of things there. I think it's about the more you can bring your ventral energy, the more you will be able to help those in your team co regulate.
[:[00:17:43] So we've had this rupture. I think then it's about naming the rupture and about giving context. Our nervous systems love context. So, let's say for example, you know, I'm in sympathetic and, you know, I haven't [00:18:00] slept well or there's a lot going on. I think even naming that is really helpful because it can Take the other person out of the story of this is to do with my value or this is to do with me, or do you know what I mean?
[:[00:18:15] Ross: Hmm
[:[00:18:33] And if you can do it in the language of, of the ladder, I think that can be even more helpful because now we're, we're looking through that lens of biology.
[:[00:18:48] just really anxious about this deadline, or
[:[00:18:55] Kerry: yeah,
[:[00:19:00] Kerry: yeah,
[:[00:19:02] of being
[:[00:19:12] Kerry: It's a really lovely way of putting it, Ross. Yeah.
[:[00:19:17] Kerry: We're all human, so it's going to happen, you know.
[:[00:19:34] Ross: we're role modeling that humanity too.
[:[00:19:40] And reminding ourselves that the relationships they can strengthen
[:[00:19:45] Ross: Oh, you're giving me goosebumps.
[:[00:20:02] Ross: it leaks out, doesn't it
[:[00:20:09] we'll pick up on other people's nervous systems anyway.
[:[00:20:19] Ross: Beautiful. So Kerry, how's Polyvagal landing?
[:[00:20:26] Kerry: Well, what I'm finding, Ross, is that people really resonate with it in general when we put that map up and show people the map, there's like a sigh from people. It's like, oh, that makes sense. And that's, really what I noticed is that people can really relate to that and can relate to the map and find that in themselves.
[:[00:21:04] Ross: I'm glad you're getting that resonance because I got that sigh. I got that moment of like, holy moly. Yeah.
[:[00:21:23] Kerry: Yeah.
[:[00:21:25] a
[:[00:21:41] Kerry: yeah, that's a great question. I think thinking about adults in the workplace, what might be a useful takeaway is to think about the concept of glimmers. I love this concept of glimmers. So it's, it's this idea that, you know, however we're feeling or [00:22:00] however Overwhelmed we might be feeling at any time or what's going on, that we can, we can identify a glimmer, like a micro moment of joy, a micro moment of hope, or you know, that micro moment of ventral vagal.
[:[00:22:35] It's just a few seconds. But, you know, these glimmers are around or the sunset or nature or, you know, a nice picture that you have. It's just, actually the invitation to take notice of the glimmers that are actually all around us, that actually feed our ventral.
[:[00:22:59] glimmers. Kerry, thanks so much for joining me on People Soup. it's been an absolute joy to hear your wisdom and how you unpack this to make it so accessible and relatable and useful for all of us in the workplace.
[:[00:23:14] Kerry: And thank you so much, Ross. It's just been an absolute honour to be on PeopleSoup, so I'm really grateful, so thank you so much.
[:[00:23:54] Now, folks, Pea Soupers, we need your help. You can support us and help us reach more [00:24:00] people with this behavioural science. So
[:[00:24:06] Ross: Number one, share it with one other person. Number two, subscribe and give us a five star review, whatever platform you're on.
[:[00:24:42] Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic and Alex Engelberg for his vocals. Most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves, peace supers, and bye for now.
[:[00:25:04] Ross: Oh, that's very kind of you and thank you. I do love doing it.
