Dr Richard MacKinnon - Loneliness at Work

Richard MacKinnon - AUDIO for POCAST

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[00:00:07] Richard: let's democratize this information.

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[00:00:29] Audiogram Potential

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[00:00:53] Richard: it speaks to doing things that are uncomfortable, but really necessary reaching out to other people and, sidestepping. Not wrestling with the thoughts that your mind gives you, um, that maybe reiterate the story about your loneliness.

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[00:01:35] Ross: you'll also hear how Richard first got into psychology, his route into organizational psychology and coaching, and the impact that actors had on his practice.

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[00:01:59] Ross: The [00:02:00] output, which is all free, is called Connect and Thrive, and you'll find the links you need to Work Life Psych in the show notes.

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[00:02:23] Ross: Let's just scoot over to the news desk, Because you might well have heard, I'll be running an Act in the Workplace Train the Trainer course in April and May next year, over four sessions, in partnership with Joe Oliver at Contextual Consulting. you'll find the links in the show notes and I'm excited to share the protocol I developed with Dr. Paul Flaxman at City, University of London, and also my experience of delivering it to hundreds of workplace participants across all sectors.

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[00:03:08] Ross: Sarah being interviewed on a podcast. this is a wonderfully insightful, vulnerable and brave inside look at Dr. Sarah Swann's journey with breast cancer and how she even wrote a book while going through it all. Well worth a listen. Well thanks to Sarah and thanks to everybody who listened, shared and rated my chat with Sarah Swann, about her extraordinary book. Your support is what makes the PeopleSoup community so special. So please do keep listening and subscribing, sharing, and letting me know what you think.

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[00:03:56] SPOONS

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[00:03:59] Richard: Thank you very [00:04:00] much. It's great to be here.

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[00:04:21] Ross: But before we dive into the topic, Richard, I'd love to find out a bit more about you. So as you know, PeopleSoup has a research department, So it says here, Richard has over 20 years of experience as a practitioner psychologist. He has worked on both sides of the fence as an internal professional and an external consultant.

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[00:05:03] Ross: He then spent over six years with TalentQ, where he was head of learning and development solutions. where he grew their training and development offer from two online courses to a full suite of development programs and a coaching team. So this is a guy who has impact wherever he goes. He's since supported a whole host of organizations to identify and develop their key talent, including organizations as varied as financial services, local government, creative studios, professional services, national government, marketing, and PR technology, startups, and healthcare.

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[00:05:43] Ross: And all of these projects were underpinned by a single principle, the application of psychological science at work. And now, he's the founder and managing director of Work Life Psych, a team of accredited and experienced psychologists who provide coaching, training, and development programs in [00:06:00] organizations worldwide.

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[00:06:24] Ross: Richard co-hosts a fortnightly podcast called My Pocket Psych, which is well worth checking out. and creates videos for his own YouTube channel. How was that, Richard? Did we capture the best bits?

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[00:06:38] Ross: for that. We're quite thorough here at People's Supertowers.

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[00:06:52] Richard: young Richard went to a very rugby oriented school, but not a fan of the rugby, didn't play. So I found my niche in music. And so my passion growing up was getting involved in music activities at school.

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[00:07:18] Ross: I didn't know we had this, this common thread. It's great what you find out on a podcast, folks. It is. What was your instrument?

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[00:07:28] Richard: No, that was it. Um, so when I was, at secondary school, I would use my summers and my weekends to play piano in restaurants and bars. For, well, for money, but also for fun. And that was my side hustle before we knew what a side hustle was. Um, so I really, really loved that aspect.

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[00:08:09] Ross: Ah, so that's when you, you first thought, Oh, there's this, this thing called psychology.

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[00:08:29] Richard: And, and he said, well, I think you'd be very interested in psychology. So I started at that point thinking, how do I do this? How do I learn about this? and then made it my priority. when I was doing my, my final school exams to get into university to study it, not really having more of a plan than that.

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[00:09:03] Ross: So where did you do that? Your, your first degree?

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[00:09:23] Richard: And then a week into that where I'd made my peace with it. I got a letter from the department of education saying they'd made a mistake. There was a marking error. And I fact did get. The points I needed. So I had a place at Trinity. So that was a really interesting experience of trying to build resilience to, you know, a setback, but more so the cognitive dissonance of no, no, this is fine.

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[00:09:50] Ross: Blimey, what an emotional rollercoaster.

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[00:10:04] Richard: It's a great degree, but it's a very small minority of psych grads actually become psychologists. So I was really enthused when studying to to take it further.

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[00:10:24] Ross: Was there a module or was it just your general thinking evolving?

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[00:10:44] Richard: And we had some great modules about the application of, psychology in society and in the workplace. And it really got me thinking that this is something, I mean, I still say it now, work touches everyone, whether you're looking for a job, you have a job, you live with someone who works. It's such a, a connecting.

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[00:11:19] Richard: I can dive in and start doing something, um, much sooner. So in my last year, I started to explore, okay, how can I, how can I do my postgrad training in this? And that's what brought me to the UK.

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[00:11:35] Richard: Yeah, absolutely. Um, and like a lot of people, I came over for one year and here I am 23 years later, still in London.

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[00:11:48] Richard: here.

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[00:11:53] Richard: it's again, it's probably an insight into the way my mind works. Um, I went for interviews, no, I applied, [00:12:00] sorry, for several master's programs and Goldsmith's was going to be the one that was the most challenging to get to, you know, on an everyday basis.

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[00:12:26] Richard: And it was a very probing interview and I came out thinking I really, really want to be here. Um, and I eventually got in.

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[00:12:34] Ross: it? That if, if the difference between just getting an offer and then having an interview, you could be daunted by the interview, but it can help validate the course and find out more. And for me, I think an org sec department is missing a trick if they don't interview people.

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[00:13:03] Richard: But, you know, cobbler's children and all that, um, psychology departments often don't apply what they know, um, in helpful ways, but I had a great experience there and, um, went straight into the world of work, when I finished the course and I know now looking back, that was really unusual and I was extremely lucky, but, um, that was great.

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[00:13:26] Pivotal Career Moments

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[00:13:41] Richard: There's one, um, so I started working at Royal Mail Group and internal consultancy there, which was the equivalent of, um, getting all of my Real world experience in just a few years, it was a phenomenal organization and I ended up doing almost everything that psychologists in the workplace [00:14:00] do at one point or another, but it knocked a few sharp edges off me in terms of realizing.

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[00:14:29] Richard: Because, you know, I was working maybe on one day in a mail center. With postal workers, you know, running feedback sessions about something another day looking at how the interface of online system is being accepted by employees and how it could be improved. And then, you know, then doing research into bullying and harassment or something in the workplace,

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[00:14:50] Richard: but that human focus and seeing where theory comes.

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[00:15:12] Ross: And I think that's the mistake we can sometimes make that we have a theory or a perfectly formed intervention and we think this is it, I'm going to shoehorn this into an organization rather than thinking about what can we notice about them, what was their culture like, what would be a flexible and practical and pragmatic way to do this to get results.

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[00:15:32] Richard: I have a phrase that I got from a manager back then that I still use now with coaches when, for example, they're starting a new job and it was their advice when I went into a mail center to imagine I was an anthropologist. You know, you've got two ears and one mouth, observe, listen, try and understand before you start telling or advising, because you, you're right.

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[00:16:11] Richard: And you're a visitor just like an anthropologist.

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[00:16:32] Richard: Absolutely. A lot of that, you know, that was a really formative time for me and I took so much from that experience into subsequent roles, whether I was working in house or working as a consultant. And, and I think, you know, that perspective of, uh, you're here to learn as much as you are to impart.

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[00:16:59] Richard: providers.

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[00:17:07] Richard: Or even the, you need one of these because other people have them, you know, other organizations are doing this.

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[00:17:17] Ross: That drives me crackers with organizations. When they're looking at the competitors and see they've got this beautifully marketed. nonsensical intervention or tool

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[00:17:27] Ross: that is so slick and smooth, but not perhaps not evidence based

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[00:17:38] Richard: But, you know, I think that's, that's pretty safe.

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[00:17:40] Richard: You know, the, the things that influenced me was noticing when theory doesn't work, seeing the practicalities of the workplace, seeing the diversity of the workplace, and really fundamentally that different people want very different things from work. We need to understand that not everyone has the same, uh, perspective on how work fits into their life [00:18:00] or how, or what a career is, or even that, that word success, you know, what does that mean?

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[00:18:18] Career Advice

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[00:18:30] Richard: So I, I do a lot of sit downs with, people considering this, you know, the come into the office for a coffee and well, it starts with, can I have a job? And I said, I'm not employing, but I can, you know, talk to you about careers and so on. And I think the most important thing is to try and get as realistic a preview of what's involved as possible.

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[00:19:10] Richard: But then that's the sort of negative. The positive, I think, is to really continue and to place a lot of emphasis on your ongoing learning and development to science. Our understanding is evolving all the time. We need to keep up with that and not get stuck in ways of doing things from 10 or 20 or 30 years ago.

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[00:19:31] Ross: Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. And some of your work now is based upon psychological flexibility and acceptance and commitment therapy, which I know many of our, uh, people who've joined us will have heard of and be actually using. But when did you first discover ACT?

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[00:19:52] Richard: And I think it was in a very informal conversational way. And, uh, not long after that, when I did a little [00:20:00] bit of reading up on it, I sort of had a light bulb moment about it because for several reasons it was ticking boxes for me. Um, it's about, I think, for me, acts and the development of psychological flexibility speaks to something very fundamental about what it is to be human. You know, figuring out what's important to you, what really matters. doing the stuff that matters and is important, even though it's tricky, uh, or uncomfortable and really fundamentally understanding that, mind that you have. Isn't always your best friend, um, and navigating the world with a lot more, compassion for yourself.

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[00:20:56] Richard: Um, this seems to be something that is drawing a really helpful line between all of these different perspectives. And I had done a lot of training in cognitive behavioral coaching, and there was always an itch at the back of my mind saying there's something. Something about this. That's not quite, I won't say right, but it wasn't quite working.

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[00:21:34] Where Ross and Richard Met

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[00:22:03] Ross: I jest, I jest. You took us to lovely places, but, um... We must have met before that.

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[00:22:25] Richard: But Dublin was it for me. Um, realizing, okay, we, we, we have the same perspective on a lot of things, but it's not a complete overlap. This is really interesting. I wanted to continue the chat.

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[00:22:36] Ross: Yeah. Well, anyway, we'll continue that one another time, but, um, tell us about work life psych. Tell us, uh, uh, briefly the origins of that, why you established that.

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[00:23:10] Richard: I'm not yet 40, but I could do this now. And if I don't do it now, I might never do it. And the it was, I really want to take what I've been doing here and only this, this people development piece and take that forward. I'm not interested or passionate about all of the other stuff that occupational psychologists can do. It's wonderful, but it's not for me. I want to really help people have a better experience of the workplace. And, um, maybe that's through coaching, maybe that's through training and imparting skills. Maybe it's a development program, but that's what I want to do. And Make sure that's evidence based because then you can speak with confidence to that and have a good rationale for that. So that's what I've been doing since 2014.

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[00:24:00] Richard: I really enjoy it. So that's, I wouldn't do what I do if I didn't enjoy it. Um, you know, there's parts to every job that aren't fun. That's absolutely part of, you know, work, but I, I try to focus on doing things I think are worthwhile.

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[00:24:19] Loneliness at Work

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[00:24:29] Richard: I mean, way back when I worked at Royal Mail, I was first exposed to the idea that people could feel disconnected, even though they were in the middle of a very interpersonally busy environment, like a mail center.

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[00:25:06] Richard: Dr. Antonia Dietman, and she did her PhD on the role of social chats in the workplace. And all of the positive impacts that a chat can have to someone's experience of work and also team functioning and all of that stuff. But she actually said to me that she uncovered a lot of literature about loneliness as part of that, you know, the, the opposite of those valuable conversations.

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[00:25:48] Richard: They are normally super happy to give you their work, um, because it's their passion. So she was really good to, um, share some papers and we continued our conversation. Thank And we eventually [00:26:00] got to the point where we said, should we do something with this? and what I want to do is distill the information, combine it with act principles and put it in front of people to say, you know, let's,

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[00:26:12] Richard: let's democratize this information.

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[00:26:34] Audiogram Potential

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[00:26:57] Richard: it speaks to doing things that are uncomfortable, but really necessary reaching out to other people and, sidestepping. Not wrestling with the thoughts that your mind gives you, um, that maybe reiterate the story about your loneliness. You know, I'm an unlikable person. I don't have social skills.

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[00:27:39] Richard: Sarah distributed it to several of the organizations she works with. We had a podcast episode about it, and I've been beating the drum about it since, to just remind people this is super important. It should be on the agenda, the well being agenda in organizations because of the impact that ongoing loneliness can have.

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[00:28:20] Ross: Gosh, thank you for beginning to unpack it for us. I completely agree about an organizational response to recognizing loneliness can be, yeah, let's have a lunch and learn.

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[00:28:40] Richard: Absolutely, because not one, not everyone enjoys those things to this is your own time. Why, why are you, you know, why should you take part in a workplace event when it's your time, but also what organizations could do and what good leaders.

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[00:29:25] Ross: Yeah, that role modeling piece so important expressions of vulnerability and the challenges that we face can really open up people's eyes in terms of normalizing the experience. But if I may, can we just go back a bit and delve in a bit more to find out about loneliness at work, what you found during your, investigations and your, your work.

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[00:30:10] Richard: It's incredibly common. And we did see it increase. during the pandemic period, we did, see that it impacts some people more than others surprisingly or not younger people were reporting higher amounts of loneliness. Um, people who lived by themselves, people who were out of work and those people who had a preexisting mental health condition.

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[00:30:52] Richard: And, uh, researchers have demonstrated that chronic loneliness, is associated with a whole range of negative health outcomes. And The impact on your immune system is not the first thing you think of when you think of loneliness. You think of passing emotions. You think of isolation, maybe, you know, being a big, misunderstanding there.

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[00:31:31] Richard: the cost of this loneliness is being estimated at around 9, 900 pounds per person per year because of the impact on productivity, health and ongoing well being. And the higher level estimate is that it costs the UK billion pounds a year. So, even if you haven't got the view that, you know, loneliness in itself is a bad thing, you can put a pound sign or a dollar sign or a euro sign in front of this and say, it is having a terrible impact on [00:32:00] individuals, organizations, and society. So we really do need to do something about it.

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[00:32:04] Ross: It's quite startling to hear those, figures, Richard, and it feels like it's. is still a taboo subject, which would you agree?

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[00:32:24] Richard: And if I'm not in the group, there must be something wrong with me. But when someone tells you they're lonely, you might automatically assume what's wrong with them. That they're not in the group, right? At some level, we're evaluating each other. And if someone expresses that they're lonely, it might, it might cause, self doubt that you say, well, have I contributed to this?

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[00:33:05] Richard: In reality, or even any evidence, for example. And so we might miss out on the opportunities around us to connect with others, we might miss out on the feedback we're getting from others, because we're paying too much attention to this voice inside that says, you are a lonely person, rather than you're experiencing loneliness right now.

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[00:33:26] Connect and Thrive Campaign

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[00:33:39] Richard: Well, actually, that's an interesting point, because Sarah and I only met once because Sarah's based in New Zealand. So we did 99% of this asynchronously, which is a really nice experience. But we met once when she was on a visit to Europe and she met me in London and we had a coffee and talked through this. And one of the things we both wanted to avoid was going out with loneliness as the [00:34:00] word.

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[00:34:22] Richard: And then together we gathered some digital resources. So I hosted this on my website and on this one page, uh, we've put together relevant podcast episodes. We've put together, um, access to national organizations. That like the campaign to end loneliness, and actually that's a call out to anyone who's watching or hearing this right now.

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[00:35:06] Richard: It needn't be the problem. It is. In organizations, we have that workplace focus, which is different to the loneliness that comes from isolation. That could be because of age or where you're based. This was about the working population and to, to get that message in front of organizations and individual employees, that something can be done about this and it needn't be very complex and it needn't be expensive.

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[00:35:36] Approach

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[00:35:43] Richard: Yeah, so for an individual, if someone was to read the guide, they'd realize it's not just me, which is a very important point. I'm not the only person who's experiencing this.

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[00:36:10] Richard: Persistence is key, but also doing uncomfortable things in the hope that it's going to get you a good result. So we, we cover off why it's important to understand your values and what really matters to you and give some values clarification tools to people because they can act as the compass to help you understand the direction.

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[00:37:01] Richard: And you can have this sense of, if I approach this new colleague and they don't agree. To have coffee with me, then that proves I'm an unlikable person. And so I don't even want to try, then I can avoid the discomfort. And so you end up in a cycle of avoiding potential discomfort rather than trying and getting the wins that come with reaching out to other people.

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[00:37:43] Richard: So trying different ways to connect with people, reflecting on, The progress you're making being flexible about that. One of the examples I give is someone who's working remotely because a colleague says, I don't have time to have a virtual coffee with you. It's kind of crushing to them. But then the colleague comes back and [00:38:00] says, but another time would be great.

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[00:38:21] Richard: It contributes to people's wellbeing and effectiveness in the workplace.

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[00:38:37] Richard: So it's on, um, uh, my website at worklifepsych.

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[00:38:58] Richard: So there's none of that. You just go to the website and it's all downloadable. And it's not just. us. So we want to put other resources on there. So if anyone who's listening to this has some interesting or quality resources around loneliness, I'll add the links to it there. I want this to be a resource for everyone.

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[00:39:26] Richard: it's a big overlap there. And that's a very painful experience. And even perceived ostracism, you haven't been, you know, thrown out of the club, but you don't feel like you're a valued member.

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[00:39:42]

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[00:39:42] Ross: Richard, I've got a question. We've touched upon it already, but advice to leaders, because you mentioned that young people looking up the ladder might think I don't want to go any further because it gets lonelier. And my experience of working with lots of leaders is they do feel quite lonely. any [00:40:00] simple small steps or tips for them?

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[00:40:25] Richard: Otherwise they're not authentic. So for leaders to authentically do the things they want other people to do, schedule a coffee, have a chat. Um, if you're in a physical shared workspace to pause and ask people how they're doing to make time for those conversations, rather than giving off like radiation, the sense that you're too busy.

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[00:40:59] Richard: It's one of the downsides of being a leader. And I disagree with that because you're still a human being. And surely, if you're the leader, you can shape things to work for you. It's not a rule that you must behave in this way. And I try and remind my clients that they have a lot more scope. to make changes than they might actually assume.

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[00:41:25] Ross: Absolutely agree. And I think sometimes leaders don't realize that influence they have. As a social species, we learn most effectively by observing others. Absolutely. And there's more scrutiny on our leaders because of their position in the hierarchy.

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[00:41:45] Richard: I mentioned Antonia Dietman earlier. I mean, her PhD research demonstrated that you can train people. How to have social chats, you know, you can actually give people the skills so they can have more of these conversations [00:42:00] that matter.

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[00:42:11] Ross: Richard, it's so fascinating to hear you talk. I'm seeing your anthropological curiosity shining through and your drive to make a difference in the world of work, which I think is tremendous.

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[00:42:23] Ross: Now, Richard, you'll know being a PSuper that I've got a question I ask all my guests. And the question is, if you had a song that would announce your arrival in a room, real or virtual, over the next few weeks, not forever, what would that song be? And why do you choose it?

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[00:42:40] Richard: And just like the shoes you wear or the car you drive, it probably says a lot about you. So, um, actually, given the couple of weeks we've just come through, I'm going to. Choose, uh, Rags to Riches by Tony Bennett because he sadly just passed away. And that was one of my favorite songs that he performed. I got to see him live in the Royal Albert Hall years ago and was blown away.

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[00:43:04] Ross: Beautiful. Thank you so much. And by the magic of editing, we'll play a bit of that on the podcast version of this. So thank you. Brilliant. But um, in the meantime, Richard, thank you so much for your generosity and your clarity in the way you present this to us. It's really, clear how much thought and dedication you've put into this important topic.

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[00:43:35] Richard: The PSUPRs, you know, for everyone out there, I might suggest that they take a moment to think about the people they work with. And whom they might want to just reach out to, to see how they're doing, whether it's they're sitting next to them or they're on the other end of a team's call to just with no agenda, just to check in with someone and say, Hi, how are you doing?

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[00:44:20] Richard: folks. That's it, Richard's episode in the bag. thanks so much to Richard for his research and generosity. The Connect and Thrive resources are so practical and useful, and of course, based in evidence. A big thanks to my producer Emma, we've got loads of ideas in the pipeline.

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[00:44:53] Ross: It's an anonymous online survey which takes less than 15 minutes to complete. Emma would greatly appreciate your participation in this study as it could provide some interesting insights on how we can better boost employee well being in the workplace. You'll find a link to the survey in the show notes.

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[00:45:21] Ross: Number two, subscribe and give us a five star review. Whatever platform you're on. And number three, share the heck out of it on the socials. This will all help us reach more people with stuff that could be useful. We love to hear from you and you can get in touch at peoplesoup.

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[00:46:00] Ross: Most of all, dear listener, thanks to you for listening. Look after yourselves, Peasoopers, and bye for now. to imagine I was an anthropologist. You know, you've got two ears and one mouth, observe, listen, try and understand before you start telling or advising,