Bite Sized Habits with Dr Heather McKee
Hi there and a very warm welcome to Season 5 Episode 22 of People Soup – it’s Ross McIntosh here.
P-Soupers - in our previous episode I introduced you toDr Heather McKee. Heather is a health behaviour change specialist. She helps companies create evidence-based health and wellness programmes that bring about long term change for their customers or employees. She also helps individuals to create health habits that last through her Bite-Sized Habits course.
In this episode, we hear all about Heather's work on creating the permission for carers to extend compassion towards themselves, creating lifelong habits, how you can learn to nourish yourself, looking after ourselves at work and unravelling our unhealthy habits. It's packed with takeaways and Heather also reveals the secret sauce we can all use to support ourselves.
People Soup is an award winning podcast where we share evidence based behavioural science, in a way that’s practical, accessible and fun. We're all about Unlocking Workplace Potential with expert perspectives from Contextual Behavioural Science.
Another first for Season 5 is that I'm adding a transcript, wherever possible. There is a caveat - this transcript is largely generated by Artificial Intelligence, I have corrected many errors but I won't have captured them all! You can also find the shownotes by clicking on notes, keep scrolling for all the useful links.
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Transcript
Part 2
[:[00:00:06] Heather: I think about a specific example, you know, like typically you're at work and you're like, right, I'm feeling tired. What can I do right now? Well, I need to just caffeinate my way through this and push, push, push.
[:[00:00:35] Heather: Um, and the thing is, we get confused. We think, oh, well I just need more caffeine. Rather than, well, actually I haven't had enough sleep and I'm actually just tired. Or I need more sugar because, oh, well actually I just need that energy. But actually, are there other ways in which you can get that energy, that feel more nourishing?
[:[00:01:02] Ross: Including how she creates the permission for carers to extend compassion towards themselves. We also chat about creating lifelong habits, looking after ourselves at work And unraveling our unhealthy habits. It's packed with takeaways and how that also reveals the secret sauce we can all use to support ourselves.
[:[00:01:48] Ross: Let's just scoot over to the news desk because I have got some big news to share. I think we might even have a drum roll.
[:[00:02:19] Ross: Also I'm planning a summer series of live podcast recordings. Which is super exciting and I'll be sharing more news shortly as it emerges.
[:[00:03:13] Ross: I think a lot of the work I do is allowing NHS professionals to, to think about how they can look after themselves. often their own self-care is way down their to-do list, and they see it as a sort of secondary or thirdly, priority. But tell us more about self-compassion for carers. Please, if you would.
[:[00:03:55] Heather: And being a carer is hard enough as it is, but it's even harder if [00:04:00] you're being hard on yourself about it. And, you know, we find that a lot in, caring communities that people, you know, Actually just don't spend that much time caring for themselves and actually feel quite guilty, caring for themselves.
[:[00:04:12] Heather: Um, and yet find it so easy to care, be compassionate and express care towards each other, so, or to towards others. and so I suppose in, in the talks I'm doing with them, it's, it's, it's more about, you know, giving them space and permission. I think permission is a very important word to care for themselves and to know what that looks like, that it doesn't necessarily mean bubble baths and, you know, glasses of red wine and chocolate, which is wonderful.
[:[00:04:57] Heather: It's about knowing about how to speak to themselves in an encouraging way when they're finding the things they're getting on top of themselves. It's about, ultimately, it's about exactly what I said. It's about giving them permission to care for themselves. And I think often I say, you know, we're all looking for permission.
[:[00:05:29] Heather: So we work on. Strengths-based, stuff. So acknowledging their strengths, thinking about times where they've showed strength and, and leaning into those strengths and maybe picking a couple of character strengths that they wish to focus in on and hone in on. because, you know, I suppose we're all too busy focused on what we do wrong rather than what we do, right?
[:[00:06:02] Heather: And immediately it makes the person feel like, yes, I can do this. Like, you know, Ross thinks I'm a tenacious person, and can we not just do that for ourselves? Can we, can we tune into what our, our true strengths are? And that's certainly an exercise we do. Another one is, thought reframing, which I think is something you probably do in your work as well, Ross, about what are those?
[:[00:06:37] Compassion in developing lifelong habits
[:[00:06:39] Heather: Oh, well, I haven't cycled again this week. I'm a failure. Or I'm only gonna do three kilometers this time. I've failed. Instead of saying, I'm returning from injury, and I'm treating my body with care and kindness, so I'm gonna pace myself because this is a lifelong habit that I wanna engage with.
[:[00:07:13] Ross: Wow. I want to reflect on a couple of points there, because the word permission is so super important. People are waiting for that permission. We often get that word used in feedback. Particularly in healthcare settings, I feel like I have permission that it's okay to look after myself, and it resonates with what I've done with teachers as well.
[:[00:07:47] Heather: Yeah.
[:[00:07:56] Heather: Mm. And it's funny because, you know, we all think that we need that inner critic [00:08:00] because that's what gets us to our goals. But ultimately, in time and time again, in studies, they've shown that people that have a more compassionate voice get to their goals faster, and they, they find the journey more enjoyable.
[:[00:08:38] Heather: So then you can, you're not living giving what's left. You're giving what's you know best in a way because you've actually had that time to nourish yourself psychologically, emotionally. you know, mentally, socially, whatever way it it needs to be. And actually, on that note, one little exercise, um, that we do in the session, which I absolutely love, it's from a researcher called Dr.
[:[00:09:24] Heather: And that doesn't necessarily mean go and eat food, but you might find that you, when you ask yourself that question, you realize you're hungry and you miss lunch or, you know, you're really thirsty and you actually haven't had a glass of water yet, or whatever it happens to be. But it could also mean.
[:[00:09:52] Heather: You might find yourself on your phone trying to connect to people. Maybe you need to go and talk to someone or have a phone call, or it [00:10:00] might be, you know, that you need something like, you need a good laugh, you need to go find a YouTube video that makes you laugh. Or, it might be that, you know, need to go and, you know, pet the cat or the dog or you know, see a child and, and just see that innocence.
[:[00:10:34] Heather: Maybe short term seem quite pleasurable and rewarding, but long term aren't actually that nourishing. So, you know, maybe binging on, you know, streaming TV or alcohol or food or, you know, over consuming social media. You know, it, it's actually training that personal intuition and that connection with ourselves that we're ultimately learning to, to love and nourish ourselves better.
[:[00:11:14] Ross: We've snapped at someone, or we've realized it's got to the end of the day and we haven't been out on our bikes and we've fully intended to, what can I do to nourish myself with kindness? And it could be going to speak to a person that maybe we realize we haven't been our best selves with, or it could be just going outside and taking a moment to breathe.
[:[00:11:56] Ross: They call it cognitive diffusion. So can I get a bit of [00:12:00] space between myself and that unhelpful thought? That unhelpful thought may be like, oh, I haven't been out on my bike. That means I'm a failure and I'm never gonna nail this. And it allows us to realize the humanity of having thoughts like that, that the kind of normal, it normalizes thoughts like that and says, look, you're gonna have these as a human being, and that's normal If you get a bit of space, there's various techniques, but if you get a bit of space between yourself and that thought, then you can see it for what it is. And maybe that space gives you a chance to think about, how could I connect with what really matters to me in this next moment? How could I reconnect to that?
[:[00:12:54] Ross: that we're gonna
[:[00:12:59] Ross: So,
[:[00:13:01] Ross: it's so lovely to hear.
[:[00:13:18] Ross: Yeah, so maybe making it small and just experimenting a bit as well to think about maybe I think about, well, who matters to
[:[00:13:26] Heather: Lovely.
[:[00:13:38] Ross: there's something quite joyful about being on a bike for me that that human powered locomotion that is just like a kind of miracle and like, Hey, I'm powering this contraption, and there's something quite joyful about that. And. Kind of, you know, when you're going down a hill and you wanna
[:[00:13:56] Heather: well I was gonna let you in a little secret there cuz I was saying I pretty [00:14:00] much, every time I go downhill on a bike, I always go wee,
[:[00:14:06] Ross: go. Kindred spirits.
[:[00:14:09] Heather: exactly. It's interesting, it's it cuz like, I think about this, like, if
[:[00:14:13] Heather: I think about a specific example, you know, like typically you're at work and you're like, right, I'm feeling tired. What can I do right now? Well, I need to just caffeinate my way through this and push, push, push.
[:[00:14:42] Heather: Um, and the thing is, we get confused. We think, oh, well I just need more caffeine. Rather than, well, actually I haven't had enough sleep and I'm actually just tired. Or I need more sugar because, oh, well actually I just need that energy. But actually, are there other ways in which you can get that energy, that feel more nourishing?
[:[00:15:16] Heather: and, and so actually, yeah, like creating that space there. It doesn't have to be, you know, a real profound, like, what's my purpose in life? And I need to lie myself with that huge purpose. It can be as simple as, do you know what, having another coffee right now is gonna be too much for me, it's gonna send me over the edge.
[:[00:15:52] Heather: You know, I'm more busy than you. Are you busy? Oh, I'm more busy than that and I haven't taken a break in X hours and, you know, whatever [00:16:00] else. And, that's something that I think is really important and I, it's something that I always, try, encourage with the companies I work with in terms of the culture as well.
[:[00:16:22] Heather: What are the behaviors that happen there? And often people, you know, can't tell me how they take a break. They say, well, I might go on my phone or I might, you know, I think especially actually given that the world is, has become much more, you know, virtual, a lot of people, you know, won't talk to someone on their break necessarily.
[:[00:16:56] Heather: And I think that's, Uh, an interesting process to, start to establish a toolkit of, of behaviors and, and little breaks you can have throughout the day that really do leave you feeling more refreshed and nourished.
[:[00:17:28] Heather: Mm,
[:[00:17:32] Ross: term. You know what I mean? The longer term, we don't often think about the longer term consequences of just keeping going or having
[:[00:17:40] Heather: And the cues as well. If you think about the repetition, like each time you eat the hobnob, When you're tired, next time you're tired, you think, oh, what did I do the last time? Oh, I ate a hobnob. That's what made me feel better. Or that's what made me feel rewarded in this. You know, if we look at the, the kind of habit loop, which is cue or trigger behavior reward, we think our brain starts [00:18:00] to create a neurological feedback loop around that and says, okay Ross, you're tired.
[:[00:18:21] Ross: Yeah. And you don't even remember whether you've had a hobnob, so then you go and have another one. Other biscuits are available
[:[00:18:27] Heather: Yeah. It was interesting cuz in one of our studies we found there was two types a day. Cause I was fascinated by this, like, when did people give into temptations and why? And one of the things we found was that around 3 34 o'clock. And around eight 30 in the evening were the times that people most gave into temptations.
[:[00:18:45] Heather: And you know, people thought that temptation was just an isolated incident, kind of a one time only thing. But actually most people had this pattern of behavior within their temptation incidences. And at three or four, it was generally because they needed a break in the day. And so I called it, I renamed it the biscuit slump, because, you know, it's when we kind of needed, or maybe we could call it the hobnob slump, you know, when we felt like we just needed that extra little bit of energy and, you know, that was the only way we thought we could have a break.
[:[00:19:34] Heather: Because if you're finding at a certain time of day, You're always kind of craving a biscuit. Yes, it might be habitual because you've done it so often, but what's driving that? Is it you know that you need that energy boost at that time of day? Maybe cuz you haven't eaten enough lunch. Is it that you need a break at that time of day?
[:[00:20:04] Heather: If it's helpful, it's unhelpful. Or if you wanna call 'em good or bad habits, they all are in response to particular rewards. So if we can understand more about what that reward is, then we can look at what are other ways that I could serve this reward at this time. So for example, typical example would be, you know, drinking, to socialize.
[:[00:20:40] Heather: They wanted to kind of cut down on it and on a Thursday they'd always go for pints. And you know, people were saying like, it's great catching up with the team, but they're finding Friday it's affecting productivity. You know, people are kind of rolling into the weekend or whatever, not feeling so great.
[:[00:21:09] Heather: on a Thursday altogether, and they found that they got the same feelings of bonding with their colleagues, but they got this kind of endorphin release as well and this stress relief and everything and, and actually the positive challenge of trying a new activity and, and, and supporting each other to try that new activity.
[:[00:21:42] Ross: Gosh, what a fabulous example. I absolutely love that because it's. It's kind of like manifesting your curiosity and what I see in the way you, you talk and the way you are making this accessible for people is your, your curiosity, your playfulness, and you are encouraging people to [00:22:00] experiment because as you've said earlier, we're not experts in being those other people.
[:[00:22:06] Ross: do. We can give you the skills that you can help and try in your own context to see what works and what doesn't. And adopting that stance of being curious and kind with yourself is at the heart of all of that. It's like I often say to people that the skills I'm looking to cultivate and support people in developing, were never taught at school.
[:[00:22:48] Ross: What motivates you to get outta bed in the morning and go and spring up and work with organizations and, and do those scary things like keynotes?
[:[00:23:18] Heather: Why have I done this to myself again? It's terrifying. What if I forget cuz I tend to go on tangents as you've probably seen. What if I forget what I'm talking about and can't bring it back to the point? Or, you know, what if my mouth goes dry and sticks to the top of my, my lipstick together? Or some sort of thing that's never happened before, but for some reason will happen just in that session at the right moment.
[:[00:23:57] Heather: You need to be seeing how people receive you, as well as [00:24:00] trying to, you know, convey that message in a way that's gonna be accessible for them and react to the energy and, and understand more. And so it's an incredibly. Mindful activity cuz you'd be so in that moment you cannot be anywhere else but in the room with people.
[:[00:24:28] Heather: I'd say, oh, Heather, you talked about this. Or I often find I'll be in the toilet and someone will be kind of, you know, coming up to me in the toilet and being like, oh, do you know why you said this thing? Or whatever. And, and I, I just love those conversations and I think that's really, I, I know this sounds a bit silly, but it says penny drop moments for people when they're like, it's all so simple and I, and they don't mean that to be offensive to my keynotes.
[:[00:25:17] Heather: But ultimately at the end of the day, we learn that we have those skills inside of us all long and it's just about actually discovering those skills and unraveling all the layers that block those skills and then all, and that's kind of my aim to help people find that, you know, those ruby slippers within or that sense of that ability to go home and that they've always had but never really realized.
[:[00:25:58] Ross: Wow. I love [00:26:00] what you're saying about, thank you, first of all, for being such a role model for us, because saying you're nervous before a keynote. Might surprise some people because you, you love doing it and you get energy from it. But I absolutely get that. It's like, when I'm facilitating, uh, a training or, or, or doing a, a talk or a lecture perhaps there is that nervousness, but there's also a mission we're on and I love the way you described it as a really mindful activity because if we're not out there looking at the people, looking at the energy in the room, maybe responding to questions, maybe switching up our tone or just being our human selves and we're not aware of what's going on in the room, then it's not gonna land.
[:[00:26:52] Heather: Oh, do you know, it's so funny. Someone just wrote on my feedback from a talk I did last week that I have a late night dj, voice, so it's very easeful. It just made me like giggle.
[:[00:27:07] Ross: I think you've peaked. I think that's it. A late night DJ
[:[00:27:15] Heather: I'll, I'll branch into bedtime stories for people relaxing
[:[00:27:19] Ross: brilliant. People sometimes say to me, um, oh, you could get voiceover work. And I'm like, well, I think it's already a very crowded market place, but um, but who knows? Maybe
[:[00:27:30] Heather: yeah. I was actually, I did a interview with, um, the BBC a while ago, and the guy on it with a producer was like, oh, you'd be great in audio books. And I was like, there you go. Squiggly career. We'll jump around.
[:[00:27:46] Heather: Yeah.
[:[00:27:50] Heather: Maybe.
[:[00:27:54] Ross: us yet.
[:[00:28:27] Heather: And it's really helpful to have that structure and framework around it. so it's certainly something that I'd love to do in the future. I think for now. I think, traveling with work and, and, and speaking and meeting people, I, I really, I found it quite hard in Covid that, I, I loved meeting people virtually online, and I, I found that really, just so needed and now I just get so excited to.
[:[00:29:06] Heather: Ask me on any other day, I'll probably give you a different answer every day. depends if I've just come back from somewhere, you know, I've got, I haven't got that wanderlust, but, um, I used to do a bit of speaking before covid, you know, in, in different countries and and stuff.
[:[00:29:34] Ross: Now, Heather, you've already been super generous with some exercises for us p supers, but is there any other takeaway you'd offer us to go away and reflect on or practice? Um,
[:[00:30:01] Heather: And that'll help you uncover that intrinsic motivation. We talked about the importance of finding joy and tuning into those specific things to like help, you know, create that craving like Russ, you know, before you go for your cycle, listening to the birds, feeling the wind in your face, all of those wonderful, you know, going down the hill, going wee, all of those things that bring you joy, and how that makes the rest easy.
[:[00:30:37] Heather: Like, you know, if you keep telling yourself, you know, the reason that you haven't achieved your life goals or your health goals yet is because you haven't found that secret sauce yet, it's time to realize that you are the secret sauce and you know, the only equipment, the only ingredient, the only super food you need is you.
[:[00:31:16] Heather: And I think that's really, really important, you know, to know that you are the secret sauce and the solution doesn't come outside of you. It actually comes from within you.
[:[00:31:38] Heather: I do. Secret sauce. Yeah, you were the, I love that. Maybe I'll get a sponsorship. Heinz or someone like, you know Heather, their secret recipe only ingredient is you.
[:[00:31:55] Ross: we didn't mention my tea was Yorkshire Tea, by the
[:[00:31:58] Ross: Yorkshire Tea. But [00:32:00] Heather prefers a whole variety of tea, but including the Irish one that's called
[:[00:32:07] Ross: Berries, which I have sampled recently on my, on my trips to Dublin.
[:[00:32:12] Ross: Now Heather, I've got a new question for guests. and it's, do you have a favorite episode of People's
[:[00:32:18] Heather: yes I do. and it might be salience bias because I've listened to it twice. but it's your episode with Lou, you're old friend. And I, I think there's just so many moments in it where I felt my heart just warm. I think, you know, she just sounded like the most wonderful person. And I think when she talked about love being her value, that just kind of broke my heart into pieces.
[:[00:32:55] Heather: So I really, I really enjoyed that one. I also enjoyed your singing, of Kaleigh Perry Roar on that one.
[:[00:33:14] Ross: for that.
[:[00:33:21] Ross: Oh, thank you. and Heather, thank you so much for coming on the show. I, suspect we could both keep chatting to each other for hours. it's been such a joy to have you on the show and hear more about your work and your approach and how you, you really live it. You said earlier that you want to really live your approach and hell, you certainly do.
[:[00:33:49] Heather: Thank you.
[:[00:33:51] Ross: That's it. Part two in the bag. [00:34:00] Thanks so much to have that for being so open and generous and all that she's shared. Don't forget to get yourself over to Heather's web page and sign up for a free bite-sized habits costs.
[:[00:34:16] Ross: If you like this episode of the podcast, please, could you do three things? Number one, share it with one other person. Number two, subscribe to the podcast and give us a five star review. Whatever platform you're on, and particularly if you're on Apple Podcasts, the Apple charts are really important in the podcast industry.
[:[00:34:52] Ross: And on Facebook we are at People Soup Pod. thanks to Andy Klan for his Spoon Magic. And Alex Engelberg for his vocal. Most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves. Peace supers and bye for now. Ross. I must say my face is hurting cause I'm smiling so much.
[:[00:35:12] Heather: so fun. I'm just like, My, I feel like my cheeks are sore.
