ACT for Burnout with Dr Debbie Sorensen

PART TWO

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[00:00:06] Debbie: And what I found is that I wasn't able to say, Oh yes, you're stressed. Of course.

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[00:00:42] So I had lost perspective a little bit and I was caught in that internal struggle with myself. Like, Oh, you know, what's wrong with you? You need to get better at this. Like, you should be able to handle this and, and so on. And I think that's pretty common. What I see with burnout is that people, they're struggling inside and it's driven by stress.

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[00:01:09] Ross: Today, I continue my chat with Dr. Debbie Sorenson, clinical psychologist, podcast host, and author. And we're going to focus in on her book, Act for Burnout. The ingredients Debbie brings to people's soup are her reflections on the writing process, including the demons that showed up and the level of self disclosure.

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[00:01:52] It's great to have you here. We aim to provide you with the ingredients for a better work life, from behavioral science and beyond. For [00:02:00] those of you who are regular Pea Soupers, thanks so much for tuning in again. We love it that you're part of our community.

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[00:02:30] So let's crack on. For now, get a brew on and have a listen to part two of my chat with Dr. Debbie Sorenson.

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[00:02:47] and I want to start with my review,

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[00:03:45] Because it really spoke to me. I think, oh goodness me. This time reading your book to pause and reflect was really powerful for me.

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[00:03:57] Ross: got a little bit more Debbie. [00:04:00] Debbie takes us from understanding what burnout is and isn't and then applies contextual behavioral science to help us develop new perspectives and understanding. Debbie is by our side as we start to make changes and build new habits, anticipating the obstacles along the way. Thank you Debbie for being our guide. Over the last three months your book has been by my side in forming my own working life and my work with individuals and organizations too.

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[00:04:37] Ross: about six months ago and it was in my pile. knew I wanted you on the show and I was thinking I'm gonna get to that next and then I didn't and then once I started reading it I was like oh Macintosh. Why did you not pick this one up sooner?

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[00:05:00] read it as well. So thank you for writing it.

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[00:05:09] and

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[00:05:13] Debbie: I kept, I did, I did a post on my, a pile of my to be read books and it's ridiculous. but yes, there are so many books out there. So I really appreciate you taking the time to read mine and I'm glad you found it helpful in that way. That was my hope.

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[00:05:33] But tell us, tell us why you felt compelled to write this, please.

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[00:05:55] Everything you write is boring and awful. and so I, was On [00:06:00] the fence about it, and I have a lot of ideas, but I think sometimes putting them into fruition is, you know, I get kind of bored or I, you know, the tedium of doing the work sometimes gets me down. but what I realized is that I had a unique perspective on burnout at that point.

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[00:07:18] And then I just decided, okay, I really want to get this point of view out there. And so I'm going to do it. And you know, the rest is history and I, my family had this ongoing joke about how my burnout book was burning us out because on top of my day job and the kids and all to find time to write is a challenge.

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[00:07:39] stressful.

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[00:07:45] idea, perhaps the approach from the publisher and, and it, you holding a copy in your

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[00:07:54] is when it was released. So my manuscript was due in the early part of 2023, [00:08:00] which means it was

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[00:08:05] The opportunity came before that. I wrote for about a year and then, you know, there's a whole process of editing and back and forth And then they have to put it in print and that kind of thing. So it's a long process a multi year process

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[00:08:28] Debbie: So I will confess that?

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[00:09:06] just kind of a, a model of burnout and kind of theoretical. And then I look at some of the internal processes. So things we can sort of look at within ourselves with burnout and then external changes, both changes in our lives, changes in how we're managing time, changes in our habits. our communication, boundary setting, that kind of thing, and also systemic and cultural changes and organizational changes, which is absolutely essential for burnout.

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[00:10:14] Ross: And what particularly struck me was how complete it is, and I'm just going to grab my copy off the

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[00:10:23] Debbie: He's holding it in his hands. I can see it on the

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[00:10:27] Ross: and it really struck me how complete a guide this is, because the part three, so part one, as you say, is about understanding burnout. Part two is about transforming burnout internally with psychological flexibility. Part three is about Making changes, and I love the chapter titles here. From burnout to growth, possibility, and change.

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[00:11:09] It is brigading my thinking, because a lot of people I work with talk about boundaries. The world of work is more complex. There are more demands on individuals, both with just the busyness of life and caring responsibilities. And boundaries is becoming a more and more important topic in my, in my field of work. But I want to take us back, just if we could, how would you describe burnout to the listener? Because it's a word we use, it's now become part of everyday vocabulary.

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[00:11:43] Debbie: I always go back to the, the,

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[00:12:11] It could be. Any type of work, a lot of different things in my mind classify as work, but it's always related to work and you just feel exhausted. You feel like you don't have any energy left for the work ahead of you. Usually, you feel pretty disconnected from it and negative about it. So kind of negativity and cynicism are part of it and then also you feel less effective, right?

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[00:12:59] So that's kind of burnout in a nutshell and I think that, you know, it can really vary in terms of things like severity and how long it lasts and that type of thing. But that cluster of just feeling sort of disengaged, disconnected, exhausted, that's what we mean by burnout.

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[00:13:16] a long week.

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[00:13:18] Ross: And it's understanding for ourselves that it's, one component is

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[00:13:25] Debbie: Yeah.

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[00:13:26] Debbie: Well, and I like to, to clarify the exhaustion part of it because, you know, we'll all feel exhausted if we're sleep deprived for a while. That's normal. But if you have a couple of days to recover, you get a few good nights of sleep in a row, you'll usually feel better. And this isn't like that. It's more of a fatigue and kind of an emotional exhaustion.

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[00:14:00] Ross: mmm, I agree. Debbie, you then talk about how enhancing our own psychological flexibility, doing that inner work can really help us when responding to maybe the signals of burnout.

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[00:14:15] suited for Approaching burnout.

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[00:14:41] And I think what happens often with burnout is that people get, you know, it happens because of chronic stress. And that's key. I should have actually mentioned that in the definition. It underlies burnout, right? There's always chronic stress that just doesn't, Resolve over the course of time, it might fluctuate a bit, but it's just constant stress.

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[00:15:27] Often we're losing perspective on things. We're so caught up in our immediate stressors that we, we just don't see the big picture and we can lose sight of our values and our sight of that sense of meaning and purpose. In a day to day kind of way. And so for instance, and I'll give you an example from myself because I, I experienced burnout and that's part of why I ended up specializing in this because it was, you know, something that I myself struggled with.

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[00:16:19] No wonder. You know, how might you take care of yourself? What do you need? Maybe this is too stressful. And, and having a compassionate view toward myself. Instead, I kind of felt like, Oh, I'm not keeping up. I need to get all this stuff done so that I'm get to a better place. But I almost felt like the stress was making me exacerbate my own burnout because I couldn't understand what was happening.

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[00:17:07] It actually makes perfect sense to be feeling that way. It's just that we get caught in that struggle and then that makes the situation worse.

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[00:17:25] Debbie: Ooh, that's a very good question.

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[00:17:52] As humans, right? We're meant to work in groups with a lot of support. And yes, I mean, I'm sure throughout humanity, things have been hard [00:18:00] and a lot of humans have been in stressful, hard situations. You know, if there's food shortage or there's warfare going on or something, there's all been all kinds of challenges, but I think that this particular way that we work, a lot of people work in isolation, people are expected to work You know, in this little niche that they have, often we're sitting at the computer all day.

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[00:18:35] Ross: I hear you, and I agree. I think we are a social species and we're also a species that evolved in nature. I've got a few colleagues who are using ACT in relation to being outdoors and being in a woodland and developing leadership courses around that to reconnect with nature where we evolved. And it makes so much sense.

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[00:19:02] really interesting.

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[00:19:06] sometimes is. Parenting, you. know, parental burnout is a newer area of study, but it's certainly something that a lot of parents can relate to. And I think, you know, we used to raise kids in big groups and now we have people home with their kids.

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[00:19:32] many.

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[00:19:41] parents perhaps.

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[00:19:43] caregiver burnout.

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[00:19:46] duality to it, I think. So it's so interesting that perspective too. And then plonking someone experiencing that caregiver burnout into a workplace.

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[00:19:59] [00:20:00] contemplate.

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[00:20:01] Ross: happening. So, you talked about some of the

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[00:20:09] Debbie: I mean, my loudest self critical narrative when I'm writing is everybody knows this. This is so boring. You know, you have nothing interesting to say here. You know, you sit down to write and everything you can think of sounds just obvious. I think especially because you're so immersed in it. So, yeah, I get really

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[00:20:37] Ross: what kept you going?

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[00:21:03] I mean, I think I know that putting yourself out there on writing is vulnerable. It's scary. And I tell some personal stories in the book about my own Burnett. I use some from my own life. I feel, you know, worried that I'll get criticism, that I'll get some bad reviews or something like that. And, and I, I think that there are a lot of times when I would rather do a million other things than sit down and write for two or three hours.

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[00:21:32] contribution that I could make. I think that that the values behind it for me have to do with just having a point of view and wanting to share it in the hopes that it will help someone. That it will kind of, that my message will help people who are suffering in some way.

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[00:22:10] I'm curious, was that a difficult

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[00:22:17] your struggles.

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[00:22:22] because of my podcast, because I do share personal stories on the podcast, too. But I also try to be aware of, My own limitations around that. I'm aware that anybody can access it. And so I want to be thoughtful about it. I don't really necessarily want to be overly disclosing, but I, I take a stance that's similar to a lot of act people, which is that, you know, being willing to disclose some examples from your own life is very important.

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[00:23:19] There were a couple things that I ended up deciding to take out of the book. I think in the podcast, occasionally we've had for ourselves or a guest where we say afterwards, they're questioning or we have a question like, oh, I'm not sure if I should have shared that. And we err on the side of taking it out if we're not sure.

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[00:23:38] Debbie: You know, but clients can listen to my podcast or read my book. My mom reads it. My mom has read it. My dad has read it. My, you know, I just like to be aware of not, also not talking about other people in a way that they might feel comfortable with. Like I'll mention my kids, but I'm not going to share a story about something one of my kids did that they might

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[00:24:02] So I just try to be thoughtful about it, and it feels vulnerable, for sure.

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[00:24:09] well, not a passage, a chapter, and I thought I'd marked it Debbie, but it appears I haven't. ah. Yes, the way you wrote about mindfulness, And you said, it's complicated, is the title of that chapter, and it was just so refreshing to hear how you described it. You described yourself as a naturally, a rather unmindful person, and something you said, I was kind of going, yes. Debbie, because you said sometimes I roll my eyes at how mindfulness is used within the

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[00:24:47] I can see a lot of problems with the way it's often presented as a quick fix wellness intervention, more focused on self improvement and attaining a blissful feeling state, and on doing good in the external world. Amen.

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[00:25:00] Ross: I see that mindfulness has been damaged by its own popularity. Because people have jumped on that bandwagon, and some of those people who've jumped on the bandwagon to mix metaphors are snake oil

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[00:25:12] Debbie: Yeah,

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[00:25:16] Debbie: I agree. I

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[00:25:37] It's thrown at people a little bit like a quick fix. And it almost feels like a fix. Like it's used in a way that's not actually going to help the situation much in the long run because it ignores some of the other factors that are going on. And so I think by when I had that idea of like, why don't I present both sides of that and talk about the debate [00:26:00] and what I grapple with and it felt like, okay, that I can do I mean, in the end, I think mindfulness is very useful. it's just we have to be conscious of how it's being used.

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[00:26:28] little bit on and

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[00:26:30] Ross: and it does help me.

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[00:26:33] Ross: And then I work with organizations who've used it as a kind of protective thing. They've given all their employees an app or a particular type of smartwatch

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[00:26:45] we've done. And they've got the mindfulness app,

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[00:26:50] medicine or a

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[00:26:52] Ross: And that

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[00:26:54] Debbie: know there's a term for that that I recently discovered? I think it, it came out a couple years ago, but it hasn't really made its way out into the culture much. And so I didn't know about this term when I was writing the book, but it's called care washing, which is when an organization puts on a show of, we care, care so much about employee well being.

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[00:27:29] Ross: is there something you've taken away from the

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[00:27:33] Debbie: Ah, well, you know, I do think that on the content level, I think that Right in the book helped me clarify and understand my own approach to burnout in a deeper way and help me connect a lot. So content wise, I think it actually helped me understand this phenomenon, which I work with every day in my private practice.

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[00:28:32] And it's, it's actually sort of reconnected me with a love I had when I was younger, which was creative writing. And so, you know, I'm kind of appreciative of that now in a way that I wasn't when I was grinding away,

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[00:28:48] Ross: Lovely. And how are people responding to

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[00:28:52] Debbie: So far, good. well, I've heard entirely positive, you know, responses. And I think that one that was most meaningful to me was a client of mine who I had mentioned the book to and, I can't remember if I gave her a copy or if she went off and ordered it herself, but she emailed me a few days later and said she had read the entire thing over the weekend and it, it sparked some immediate changes.

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[00:29:35] Ross: And

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[00:29:39] Ross: have I seen on social media that you're doing a few

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[00:29:59] Lovely. [00:30:00]

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[00:30:01] a tour? a

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[00:30:03] No plans, no plans. not Yet. You never know.

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[00:30:12] useful for the listeners?

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[00:30:16] Is If you're feeling burnt out or even like you're tipping toward burnout, reach out for support. Tell someone, get help, get practical help or get emotional support, whatever you need. And two is to just take a look at what depletes you and what recharges you when you're stressed.

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[00:30:54] Ross: Lovely. Very concise and very

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[00:30:57] Thank you very, very

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[00:30:59] Debbie: You're welcome.

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[00:31:05] I'm so grateful for you joining me on

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[00:31:09] very much.

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[00:31:23] Ross: That's it, folks. Part 2 of my chat with Debbie in the bag. Please do check out Debbie's book. Act for burnout.

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[00:31:58] soup and on [00:32:00] Facebook, we are at people soup pod. you can help me reach more people with the special people soup ingredients. Stuff that could be really useful for them. So please do share, subscribe, rate and review. Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic and Alex Engelberg for his vocals. But most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves, pea soupers, and bye for now.

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[00:32:23] Debbie: I think so. it's meant to be. Sign me up for Flamenco lessons and an omelet.

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